Thoughts on BM

evolve84

BM is inextricably linked to truth, in my opinion. I feel that facing the reality of the human condition - grasping it at the core, for what it is - is what fuels its nihilism. That deeply personal revelation makes the experience a "religious" one - at least in my case.

Religions, as we know, are an impediment to human progress, and we would be better off without them. BM is an extremely - perhaps, the most - pure expression of that view. If you care about where humanity is going, it is almost hypocritical to not be anti-religious.

Satan should be (and is) a metaphor for pushing back. In my opinion, the defining characteristic of BM is anti-religion, and the ends justify the means. Fans in malls? No problem - at best, we are recruiting people to the way we see the world. At worst, they are being exposed to a "radical" point of view (in their eyes).

As the limits are pushed -- if people are used to hearing "eradicate religion" - then it is that much easier (and that much less extreme) for a kid to come out and say I'm an atheist or agnostic - and again, BM wins.

That being said, the day Rotting Christ is on MTV is a day closer to marginalized, irrelevant religious influence - and one step closer to an improved human condition. The only prerequisite is that the bands stay true to the message - anti-religion - and that is the most important standard we should hold them up to, in my opinion.

*Posted this on an editorial a few minutes ago, thought I would re-post and get a discussion going.

C_Chulainn

Assuming your premise is correct, your conclusions are valid. But how do you justify the claim that BM incorporates the most truthful interpretation of existence, or that this is in fact the BM "message"?

traptunderice

The core of the human condition =/= nihilism.

If Rotting Christ was on MTV, it'd be either a really watered down RC or a as some form of a joke. Hot Topic isn't introducing people to Dark Throne it's introducing them to Keep of Kalessin and I think that's Zad's issue with the whole thing.

crast

traptunderice wrote
The core of the human condition =/= nihilism.If Rotting Christ was on MTV, it'd be either a really watered down RC or a as some form of a joke. Hot Topic isn't introducing people to Dark Throne it's introducing them to Keep of Kalessin and I think that's Zad's issue with the whole thing.

The Monolith Deathcult has been on MTV, which was quite hillarious actually.

.:crast:.

(ps: Dutch MTV)

Goat

traptunderice wrote
The core of the human condition =/= nihilism.If Rotting Christ was on MTV, it'd be either a really watered down RC or a as some form of a joke. Hot Topic isn't introducing people to Dark Throne it's introducing them to Keep of Kalessin and I think that's Zad's issue with the whole thing.

Yeah. People aren't thinking 'wow, this Black Metal music is really cool and forward-thinking, let's get people to listen to it' but rather 'haha, look at those painted freaks making a racket, let's get as much money out of it as we can'. It might be romanticising things by setting the origins of Black Metal as something revolutionary rather than a bunch of bored teenagers killing each other, but even so it's quite a way from that to appearing on Eurovision, which is just one step away from Simon Cowell's parade of abominations.

As should have been obvious to anyone with a brain, I don't actually believe that Black Metal sans Satan is worthless - I've softened in my views in all sections of life. The sad truth is that Marilyn Manson turned more people onto the dark side than Darkthrone ever will, and reading a book like that new Dan Brown as I recently did, where the end message is that the secret of the Masonic society is that the freaking Bible is the mystery and everyone should read it; there's a long way to go for anti-religionists, is all. I just don't want my music spoiled.

noodles

imo black metal is aggressive and violent music that usually sounds angry or sad.

Holy_Terror

Despite the fact that religion has produced some of the most tragic event in history, it is also responsible for some of the most shining moments of human triumph. It's not a question of wrong or right. If you're religious you're not wrong, and vice versa there is nothing wrong with being anti-religious. People's life's are hard enough, everyone for the most part chooses an ideology that helps them best come to terms with life and the many events that it encompansses. Just becaus history has provided some extremely black moments because of religion, doesnt mean that it has no value. Most universally accepted morals of civilized society's developed because of religion. Science, could never have evolved to the point it has without religon. Historically speaking, I think religion was the first type of scienc. People needed reasons for the unexplainable. FOr phenomenon that they knew was happening around them, but had no explanaiton for.

That being said, I think most Black Metal bands, at least the overtly Satanic ones, preach a message of hatred based based only again people's Christian beliefs. It seems rather hypocritical. ONe thing is to preach freedom from creeds, its quite another I think to attack people for their beliefs. Now I don't know as much about black metal a other people on this forum do, but most of the black metal I see is a bunch of idiots wearing face paint screaming Hail Satan. Retarded satanism is what I call it. If these people espoused the same philosophical views some of you articulated earlier in this thread, then I would be inclined to have a higher view of the genre than I currently do.

huskerc7

It's not whether about christianity is true..it's whether you're for it or against it.

I don't think black metal should have any pre-set agenda within the lyrics or music. I like music that makes me feel a certain way, whether the lyrics are anti-religious or not doesn't mean much to me. Do black metal lyrics being "evil" and anti-religious make complete sense due to the sound of the music? Yes.

Rauken

People's life's are hard enough, everyone for the most part chooses an ideology that helps them best come to terms with life and the many events that it encompansses.

I don't think most people choose their religion, they are born in to a religion. Parents, society etc makes the decision for you. Even in countries where you are free to choose your religion the choice is a lot of the times made for you.

A lot of places around the world however don't have the luxury at all to choose religion, but are forced to practice it.

I don't have anything against people personally who believe in religion but my opinion is that religion is holding the human race back. Praise science!

noodles

huskerc7 wrote
I don't think black metal should have any pre-set agenda within the lyrics or music. I like music that makes me feel a certain way, whether the lyrics are anti-religious or not doesn't mean much to me. Do black metal lyrics being "evil" and anti-religious make complete sense due to the sound of the music? Yes.

yeah

Holy_Terror

I don't see why the two are incompatible. Except for a few aging fundamentalists and the new born again crop, I think most people who believe in Christianity are able to blend the two. I know most Catholics are like that now, the Vatican, for all its secrecy and scandal has been better than most religions at incorporating scientific fact into its teachings. For instance, most Catholic priests will tell you that dinosaurs were real, and that the big bang and all associated astrological phenomenon is supported by science. So...at least as far as I know, an the way I was raised, the two are quite compatible.

Now I do understand that there are a lot of people out there who use religion the wrong way, and I think that's what BM is trying to get at. SOmetimes the message gets confused and it comes out as Anti-semitic, anti-Christian hate music. If that's the way they choose to present their message than they are preaching a message that is no better than Hitler's. I am not inclined to support either the religious or the anti-religious message but I find the two extremes in both camps to be quite similar to each other. For instance,

Fundamentlist christians and muslims believe that you are condemned to hell, or its equivalent, if you don't believe in what they believe. So basically non-Christian/muslim = bad.

Fanaical satanists and ignorant anti-religious folk use the same type of exclusionary tactics to imply the stupidity or worthlessness of the other group. So, basically Christian/muslim/relgious = bad.

Seems like both sides should just fuck off and let the other believ what it wants. It's not like BM people make the world worse for Christians, or vice versa. Both sides at least to me, are blinded by ignorance and hatred, and I don't think that's what either was intended for. Although, the BM movement from what I understand began because select group of Norwegian metal heads felt that Christianity had suppressed Norwegian culture. If that was the intended message, then it seems that all non-Norwegian BM bands are in it just for the aesthetic and misguided hatred. Although I find the Norwegian position unconvincing, I think that other national groups using the same message as their motivation to be even less convincing.

Live and let live, that's what I say. It's not hard to impiment either. You do your sit and as long as you don't interfere with mine we're cool. Seems quite simple.

GeneralDiomedes

Nihilism is far more dangerous than any religion, and therefore more interesting.

Eternal_Idol

The thing is, though, if you take away the corpsepaint and the pentagrams in the unreadable logos, you see that Black Metal isn't really about Satan at all. Most of the bands are talking about pagan gods and freezing mountains. It's a gimmick to sell albums. Take away the Dark Funeral's and the Gorgoroth's and there is very few bands that actually give praise to the dark one. I would also imagine most of these bands take the whole satanism shit about as seriously as Venom does, they just won't admit to it.c

Holy_Terror

Eternal Idol wrote
The thing is, though, if you take away the corpsepaint and the pentagrams in the unreadable logos, you see that Black Metal isn't really about Satan at all. Most of the bands are talking about pagan gods and freezing mountains. It's a gimmick to sell albums. Take away the Dark Funeral's and the Gorgoroth's and there is very few bands that actually give praise to the dark one. I would also imagine most of these bands take the whole satanism shit about as seriously as Venom does, they just won't admit to it.c

Yes, this is a good point. Most Black Metal musicians spend too much time on the imagery part and not enough on intelligent substance.

traptunderice

Holy_Terror wrote
Eternal Idol wrote
The thing is, though, if you take away the corpsepaint and the pentagrams in the unreadable logos, you see that Black Metal isn't really about Satan at all. Most of the bands are talking about pagan gods and freezing mountains. It's a gimmick to sell albums. Take away the Dark Funeral's and the Gorgoroth's and there is very few bands that actually give praise to the dark one. I would also imagine most of these bands take the whole satanism shit about as seriously as Venom does, they just won't admit to it.c
Yes, this is a good point. Most Black Metal musicians spend too much time on the imagery part and not enough on intelligent substance.

WITTR contradicts this thread in so many ways.

The_Evil_Dead

I just like to listen to the music. :blink:

huskerc7

The Evil Dead wrote
I just like to listen to the music. :blink:

:dio:

Holy_Terror

traptunderice wrote
Holy_Terror wrote
Eternal Idol wrote
The thing is, though, if you take away the corpsepaint and the pentagrams in the unreadable logos, you see that Black Metal isn't really about Satan at all. Most of the bands are talking about pagan gods and freezing mountains. It's a gimmick to sell albums. Take away the Dark Funeral's and the Gorgoroth's and there is very few bands that actually give praise to the dark one. I would also imagine most of these bands take the whole satanism shit about as seriously as Venom does, they just won't admit to it.c
Yes, this is a good point. Most Black Metal musicians spend too much time on the imagery part and not enough on intelligent substance.
WITTR contradicts this thread in so many ways.

What is WITTR?

traptunderice

Holy_Terror wrote
traptunderice wrote
Holy_Terror wrote
Eternal Idol wrote
The thing is, though, if you take away the corpsepaint and the pentagrams in the unreadable logos, you see that Black Metal isn't really about Satan at all. Most of the bands are talking about pagan gods and freezing mountains. It's a gimmick to sell albums. Take away the Dark Funeral's and the Gorgoroth's and there is very few bands that actually give praise to the dark one. I would also imagine most of these bands take the whole satanism shit about as seriously as Venom does, they just won't admit to it.c
Yes, this is a good point. Most Black Metal musicians spend too much time on the imagery part and not enough on intelligent substance.
WITTR contradicts this thread in so many ways.
What is WITTR?

Wolves in the Throne Room. Any band along the lines of Krallice, Gris, etc and ad nauseum which has no hard-on for image or Satan that make devastatingly awesome music with some intelligence and talent to boot contradict this thread. DsO have the technicality and skill but harbor that weirdo uber-metaphysical satanism to such a creepy degree.

Holy_Terror

Ah, I see. Well I can't really add anything to that. Dont really listen to any of those bands.