The General Politics Thread

traptunderice

cry of the banshee wrote
http://news.yahoo.com/margin-u-n-defeat-disappoints-israel-145828508.html

The important part; the right to return, which the Geneva Convention also upholds, is what the Israelis want the Palestinians to give up:

The Geneva Convention forbids occupying powers from moving "parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies", leaving Israeli officials potentially vulnerable to an ICC challenge. Israel says its settlements are legal, citing historical and Biblical ties to the West Bank and Jerusalem.The Palestinians say they are in no rush to go to the ICC, but the threat is there, putting pressure on Israel to come up with creative solutions to overcome the peace-talks impasse, which the Jewish state blames on Abbas.

cry_of_the_banshee

traptunderice wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
http://news.yahoo.com/margin-u-n-defeat-disappoints-israel-145828508.html
The important part; the right to return, which the Geneva Convention also upholds, is what the Israelis want the Palestinians to give up:

The Geneva Convention forbids occupying powers from moving "parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies", leaving Israeli officials potentially vulnerable to an ICC challenge. Israel says its settlements are legal, citing historical and Biblical ties to the West Bank and Jerusalem.The Palestinians say they are in no rush to go to the ICC, but the threat is there, putting pressure on Israel to come up with creative solutions to overcome the peace-talks impasse, which the Jewish state blames on Abbas.

And around and around it goes...

RelentlessOblivion

and we're back to Israel-Palestine

can't you idiots come up with a new political issue to discuss 🙂

Goat

RelentlessOblivion wrote
and we're back to Israel-Palestinecan't you idiots come up with a new political issue to discuss 🙂

Haha, we've done everything from America to Liechtenstein! 🙂

RelentlessOblivion

mate don't take me so seriously, especially when I include the smiley that's a pretty good indicator I'm taking the piss

cry_of_the_banshee

Ooooh, I have one:

The Second Amendment To The United States Constitution

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Ame ... nstitution</a>

thoughts?

RelentlessOblivion

aren't there more guns in the US then people? speaking as an outsider I fail to understand the relevance of this particular provision, gun crime is rapidly becoming a serious issue in Australia and we have very strict gun control policies, I can't imagine what it could be like in the lower socio-economic neighborhoods of the US with people being able to own firearms with almost no questions asked

traptunderice

cry of the banshee wrote
Ooooh, I have one:The Second Amendment To The United States Constitution<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Ame ... nstitution</a>thoughts?

The problem that always got me was the militia bit. Is that not what the national guard or army reserve is? It is not as if the hunting rifles or shotguns I had access to growing up could defend against an invading force. In case, it's not clear I'm opposed to guns. I think that ranges are great and that people should be able to fire guns, but there is no reason to have one in your home.

RelentlessOblivion

I'm much the same, I see no reason why anyone needs to own or possess a gun in modern times

cry_of_the_banshee

Well, I am for it (2nd Amendment), because I believe in self sufficiency. And that includes protecting myself, loved ones and property, as well as the ability to provide food if the need ever arose, without depending on the government to take care of those things.

At this point, firearms aren't going anywhere; it's better to have more law abiding citizens possessing them than criminals (which would be the only ones to have them were they ever :lol: outlawed).

Besides, it's my goddamn right as an American citizen, so there's that.
Plus they are a blast to shoot...
😃

MetalStorm

RelentlessOblivion wrote
I'm much the same, I see no reason why anyone needs to own or possess a gun in modern times

Zombies

traptunderice

cry of the banshee wrote
the ability to provide food if the need ever arose

So you have a garden as well?

At this point, firearms aren't going anywhere; it's better to have more law abiding citizens possessing them than criminals (which would be the only ones to have them were they ever :lol: outlawed).

Because having a gun when you think someone is invading your home has never resulted in the accidental shooting of a family member?

Besides, it's my goddamn right as an American citizen, so there's that.

But the question is, is it your right as a citizen to own a gun or be a part of a militia? If something was to happen would you leave your family and be conscripted into a fighting force? Earlier it seems as if you would want to stay with your family in some kinda post-zombie apocalypse style of self-sufficiency.

Plus they are a blast to shoot... 😃

Which is why ranges should be made more available so that people learn more about guns and that the stigma is decreased surrounding them.

Thrashtildeth

Going to have to agree with trapt on all counts here.

No good reason for guns. The level of gun crime in your country - for a developed nation - is utterly absurd. Doesn't it bother you that there are 10,000 gun related homocides (on average) every year? That's completely insane. And it's no coincidence. I'm all for civil liberies, but you just can't convince me anybody ever needs to have a gun.

traptunderice

Thrashtildeth wrote
Doesn't it bother you that there are 10,000 gun related homocides (on average) every year?

V's argument is that those are all unregistered guns owned by criminals and that there would be much more if intelligent, safety conscientious people like him (tongue not in cheek, I do believe he is those things) didn't have guns to defend themselves.

edit: when I presume your argument, I'm always misframing you probably I'll admit, but I want to be corrected, and not shut down the debate.

cry_of_the_banshee

traptunderice wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
the ability to provide food if the need ever arose
So you have a garden as well?

At this point, firearms aren't going anywhere; it's better to have more law abiding citizens possessing them than criminals (which would be the only ones to have them were they ever :lol: outlawed).
Because having a gun when you think someone is invading your home has never resulted in the accidental shooting of a family member?
Besides, it's my goddamn right as an American citizen, so there's that.
But the question is, is it your right as a citizen to own a gun or be a part of a militia? If something was to happen would you leave your family and be conscripted into a fighting force? Earlier it seems as if you would want to stay with your family in some kinda post-zombie apocalypse style of self-sufficiency.

Plus they are a blast to shoot... 😃
Which is why ranges should be made more available so that people learn more about guns and that the stigma is decreased surrounding them.

1) actually, my wife does tend a garden2) People die in car crashes, just as one example every day. Also, alcohol kills more people a year than handguns<a class="postlink" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/ ... aths-year/</a>

Alcohol abuse kills some 75,000 Americans each year and shortens the lives of these people by an average of 30 years, a U.S. government study suggested Thursday.

handgun related deaths :<a class="postlink" href="http://www.nysun.com/national/surprising-fact-half-of-gun-deaths-are-suicides/80978/">http://www.nysun.com/national/surprisin ... des/80978/</a>

Suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

More than twice as many people die from alcohol than guns.

3) I would fight if needed, but only in defense; meaning if we were invaded or attacked from within.

traptunderice

cry of the banshee wrote
traptunderice wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
the ability to provide food if the need ever arose
So you have a garden as well?

At this point, firearms aren't going anywhere; it's better to have more law abiding citizens possessing them than criminals (which would be the only ones to have them were they ever :lol: outlawed).
Because having a gun when you think someone is invading your home has never resulted in the accidental shooting of a family member?
Besides, it's my goddamn right as an American citizen, so there's that.
But the question is, is it your right as a citizen to own a gun or be a part of a militia? If something was to happen would you leave your family and be conscripted into a fighting force? Earlier it seems as if you would want to stay with your family in some kinda post-zombie apocalypse style of self-sufficiency.

Plus they are a blast to shoot... 😃
Which is why ranges should be made more available so that people learn more about guns and that the stigma is decreased surrounding them.
1) actually, my wife does tend a garden2) People die in car crashes, just as one example every day. Also, alcohol kills more people a year than handguns<a class="postlink" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/ ... aths-year/</a>
Alcohol abuse kills some 75,000 Americans each year and shortens the lives of these people by an average of 30 years, a U.S. government study suggested Thursday.
handgun related deaths :<a class="postlink" href="http://www.nysun.com/national/surprising-fact-half-of-gun-deaths-are-suicides/80978/">http://www.nysun.com/national/surprisin ... des/80978/</a>
Suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
More than twice as many people die from alcohol than guns.3) I would fight if needed, but only in defense; meaning if we were invaded or attacked from within.

1) That's adorable. Without sounding creepy, I don't know your home situation, but I do have this image of you having a cutesy little family and I find it sweet. Sorry. I'm overly emotional these days.
2)Cars seem a necessary evil, while guns don't seem so necessary. I need to be convinced that guns are necessary. Not that you want one because it's your right, but that something is actually gained by you having it. And I don't need convinced of the issues with alcohol. If anything, alchohol was the reason I had a gun pointed at me and so the combination of the two, the fact that alcohol is so major an issue, is why I don't think guns should be so accessible. 55% of 31,000 deaths being suicidemay be a lot, but more than 10,000 homicides is still too many homocides. Canada has 600 gun murders a year. Qualify that by population difference, urban to rural differences, whatever and it still comes off as just way too many in America.
3) I think that the second amendment points less towards a right to bear arms and more towards the need or possibility of a militia. It doesn't say own guns because you want to, but own guns in order to rally as a fighting force in times of duress.

cry_of_the_banshee

Meh, we'll agree to disagree, as per usual, I guess.

traptunderice

cry of the banshee wrote
Meh, we'll agree to disagree, as per usual, I guess.

But I'm bored. C'mon.

Tehom

I own one because I don't want people to steal my property, all this quoting of statistics is fine and dandy but you'll be thanking yourself once you're able to defend yourself adequately instead of being like Trapt and hurling one of your useless Sociology books at the perpetrator.

Once my tax returns in I'm going to get an SR22, and look into either buying an AK or a decent shotgun.

traptunderice

Tehom wrote
I own one because I don't want people to steal my property, all this quoting of statistics is fine and dandy but you'll be thanking yourself once you're able to defend yourself adequately instead of being like Trapt and hurling one of your useless Sociology books at the perpetrator.Once my tax returns in I'm going to get an SR22, and look into either buying an AK or a decent shotgun.

Because the next time I get mugged at gun point, I should pull out my gun... :rolleyes:

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