The General Politics Thread

Goat

Someone explain America to me. Don't you already have unions and a minimum wage?

rio

As far as I am aware:

Different US places have different minimum wages. As with everywhere else, they tend to be unenforcable in places which can't be monitored on a daily basis at shopfloor level. Hence why I say that suc a thing needs unions- because they are in that workplace all day every day, are generally in contact with everyone there, and have a vested interest in ensuring that minimum wage regs are respected.

Of course America has unions, but they have been beaten down by deindustrialisation and regulations even more so than they have been here. In environments where practices such as the exploitation of illegal migrants through gangmasters is rampant, they would be non-existent, I'd imagine. Again, as is the case elsewhere.

rio

Edited out as I felt guilty at such a shameless plug

cry_of_the_banshee

Fair worker representation has been surpassed into what is basically politically backed extortion long ago, though. Can paying someone with nothing more (sometimes less) than a High School degree $40+ / hour to push a button on cue really be justified?
Along with all the usual perks, of course. Add incompetent CEOs making literally $$$MILLIONS in bonuses alone, and companies shipping jobs overseas, across the border (thanks in part to your local union's demanding more than a fair wage; of course corporate greed plays it's role, as well) and voila! you have disaster. Is it really any wonder the once middle-class majority is receding into an ever lower standard of living? Unemployment is the worst it's been in nearly 30 years.
Unions (along with corporate greed and self-rewarding incompetence) are part of the problem; they have been corrupted, ironically, by greed.

Two parasites feeding off of each other.

cry_of_the_banshee

rio wrote
I would be interested to hear any historical examples at all of problems to which a "grassroots right wing movement" was or should have been the best answer.The "problem" (such as it is: millions of people coming in to work in the service sector at extremely low wages is a problem for US workers, but not for US businesses or US consumers) is surely the demand of American employers for- and their ability to get- extremely cheap below-the-board labour.Therefore the solution is a simple and logical one: an enforceable minimum wage that can provide a living standard for US citizens, and (shock horror) representative mechanisms in the workplace (i.e. unions or other employee associations) that can enforce these standards on a thorough and daily basis. Thus: a rational meritocracy! No labour arbitrage by employers bringing in people who can be forced to work cheaper because of their shady situation. Everybody is judged on their ability to do the job. And everybody who does the job pays taxes and in return is genuinely entitled to use government services.I mean, perhaps this sounds optimistic- but would bet my Celtic Frost albums that if when you look at the workplaces where there is the most exploitation of undocumented migrants in the worst conditions, they are also the workplaces where labour strength is lowest.

Liberalism is a slowly corrosive force eating away at the core of this once great nation. Egalitarianism and it's illegitamate offspring are a lie that promotes stagnation; not everyone deserves to drive a Lexus. Some people actually deserve to live in poverty, believe it or not.
Ever since the "Great Society" bs of LBJ, this country has been spiralling in an ever increasing vortex of decay.

As for the idea that a minimum wage is the solution: there already is one.
The problem is employers hiring cheap undocumented (under the table) labor. They should be fined and punished, and anybody here illegally, kicked the hell out of here, along with their family.

We have a vast supply of slave labor at our disposal already. They're called prisoners. Put them to work in the fields and on the roads; make them earn their three hots and a cot. Why not kill two birds with one stone? Also, the next time some punk thinks it's a good idea to rob the local Kwik-E-Mart, maybe he'll think twice about slaving away for ten-twelves hours a day in the field, be it rain, or 120 degree sunshine. So make that three birds with one stone.

cry_of_the_banshee

emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/The nerve of that sonofabitch Calderon, and our sissified milquetoast president just eats it without a word of rebuke.Pathetic.What this country needs is an American Putin, instead we get effeminate pigeon-hearted weaklings all too willing to grab their dainty little ankles before ineffective third-world pissants like Calderon, et al. So, it is now illegal to break the law... gee, who'da thunkit?And the leader of that bastion of law, order, justice and ethics south of the border has something to say about it?Is it any wonder the country is circling the drain?Whatever gods there be, may they help us all.
I wouldn't go so far as to advocate an American Putin but I agree in principle.There is simply no federal solution to the border problem, after all, democrats won't vote for it because Latinos and their do-gooder allies on the left get agitated at the mere mention of a more effective bottleneck to stop the flow. So...Arizona had to take matters into its own hands and overreached. I just wish all of the outraged gringos who support their Mexican brethren would experience having their car wrecked by an illegal tooI can't blame Calderon for speaking out though--it makes him look better back home and he wants the uninterrupted flow of illegals to lessen his burdens with overpopulation.
Not only that, the dollars the illegals send back home is very good for the Mexican economy. While the tax dollars they use in lieu of services that could otherwise be used for this country's own citizens... not so good for us.Fuck Calderon in the ear. Then, fuck him in the other ear. Obammy, too.The bottom line is, this country can't even take care of it's own people, and the last thing it needs is an influx of unskilled, uneducated third-world underclass just looking to exploit it, that don't even speak the language, mind you, while flooding our facilities, using our resources, having a brood of "anchor" babies and (what it boils down to) breaking our laws. And demanding that we accomodate them.If nothing else, it's a matter of principle, and our politicians are selling us out (yet again) in the hope of a new corner of the political market to exploit.
The sending money back home point was a good one. I think the bottom line though is that American big business can never get its hands on enough cheap Mexican laborers to exploit and so you'll never grass-roots right-wing movements successfully take on both the left and the right establishment.So...big business gets what it wants while America divides into virulent 'multiculturalism'. When the southwest irredentist movements fully split the country in a few decades the multi-national corps will laugh as they take their billions to the bank.

As always, the average citizen gets the shaft.
What is it with white, European Americans that we collectively just allow our country (because, like it or not it was at one point a vast majority white country; at the rate we are going, not for much longer) to be taken over, both racially and culturally?
So we can "celebrate" "diversity"?
It's not as if the interlopers (for the most part; don't belive me? take a drive through any of our cities. They are divided by immigrant groups and it is visibly obvious.) want to embrace our culture, though we are required to embrace theirs; that's the modern day liberal defintion of "diversity".

Look for an ever increasing amount of Balkanization taking place over the next couple of generations, unless some serious changes are made. It's going to be interesting.
What other group has such a death wish?
Well, western Europeans, but...
It's sad, really, though I predict a few coughriocoughtraptcough will disagree.

cry_of_the_banshee

And I'd really (no; really!) love to debate this, but I have to go to work, you see... not only does my family require food and shelter and at times, medical coverage, apparently so do a ton of others that I don't even know, god love 'em.
Oh well, we are into the 5th month of the year now, it's about that time that what I earn can be directed towards me and mine.
Cheerio!

rio

cry of the banshee wrote
Fair worker representation has been surpassed into what is basically politically backed extortion long ago, though. Can paying someone with nothing more (sometimes less) than a High School degree $40+ / hour to push a button on cue really be justified?Along with all the usual perks, of course. Add incompetent CEOs making literally $$$MILLIONS in bonuses alone, and companies shipping jobs overseas, across the border (thanks in part to your local union's demanding more than a fair wage; of course corporate greed plays it's role, as well) and voila! you have disaster. Is it really any wonder the once middle-class majority is receding into an ever lower standard of living? Unemployment is the worst it's been in nearly 30 years.Unions (along with corporate greed and self-rewarding incompetence) are part of the problem; they have been corrupted, ironically, by greed.Two parasites feeding off of each other.

I would guess that you have very little actual evidence for any of this besides the odd out-of-proportion story here and there. That's aside from the highly dubious point about a "fair wage". What is that? And which particular groups of union members are earning above it?Blaming unions for US companies moving manufacturing abroad is pretty cheeky when it's the unions who are pretty much the only people who have been fighting tooth and nail against outsourcing since time immemorial. Unless your reasoning is that they forced those poor, poor multinational corporations to go looking for a workforce that was less likely to stand up to them?Labour is cheaper abroad than in the US (unless it is undocumented migrant labour), so unless you would prefer US workers to be doing the same hours for the same wages as, say, a Chinese or Bangladeshi worker, don't blame the unions for outsourcing. Why not join them on their next protest against it? Or buy union-label stuff?

As for the idea that a minimum wage is the solution: there already is one.

See my last two posts (including the very one you just quoted).

We have a vast supply of slave labor at our disposal already. They're called prisoners. Put them to work in the fields and on the roads; make them earn their three hots and a cot. Why not kill two birds with one stone? Also, the next time some punk thinks it's a good idea to rob the local Kwik-E-Mart, maybe he'll think twice about slaving away for ten-twelves hours a day in the field, be it rain, or 120 degree sunshine. So make that three birds with one stone.

Wow, you're really serious when you say you want an American Putin, aren't you?

One of the things I've tended to grudgingly admire about the US right is its argument that by opposing any and all "collectivism" the US has managed to avoid the kinds of dicatorial and authoritarian governments and movements Europeans have had to deal with over the last few centuries. i.e., they may have it wrong but at least they take the liberal and egalitarian values of the US constitution seriously. Quotes like these really reassure me that they don't actually have a point, after all.

"rio: more pro-American and anti-Russian than Cry of the Banshee." I like the way that sounds!

rio

cry of the banshee wrote
Look for an ever increasing amount of Balkanization taking place over the next couple of generations, unless some serious changes are made. It's going to be interesting.What other group has such a death wish?Well, western Europeans, but...It's sad, really, though I predict a few coughriocoughtraptcough will disagree.

By the way- if you look at what I am actually advocating- i.e. a labour movement that represents the shared material interests of people of whatever race, religion, etc.- you will find it is effectively the direct opposite of "Balkanization".

Don't let that get in the way a a nice clutch of assmuptions and stereotypes, though! :dio:

Goat

Yikes. A storm of wacky opinions - chaingangs! white culture! uncompassionate conservatism! - followed by a quick cheeky cheerio. Was just going to mention something about the liberal vs authoritarian thing, but rio got there first.

Thomas

Don't know if it's relevant to CotB's point or not, but here, immigrants may be offered a free drivers lisence, which actually costs between 3-4000 USD.. Unfair? Or just including? What do you guys think?

My personal opinion is that the measures allready taken to include immigrants in the society is enough. And if they're getting a free driver's lisence, so should all of the poor and homeless in Norway.

Goat

Do you have such things as roadtax, car insurance etc in Norway? Maybe it works out better in the long run. Plus, poor people are different from the homeless.

And

cry_of_the_banshee

Nosy Brits... we kicked your meddling asses out of our country a long time ago, worry about your own crumbling former empire for a change, wat?

As if rio has any clue about the US outside of a very brief sojourn and what he has read out of some leftist books...
yeah, your right, what do I know; I've only lived here for 43 years.
:lol:

Goat

rio wrote
Don't let that get in the way a a nice clutch of assmuptions and stereotypes, though! :dio:

"Assmuption" is a cool word. Sounds like a kind of beard.

traptunderice

I had this debate at work yesterday and cutely enough I proposed nearly a similar plan to Rio's; required minimum wage to make their illegal labor not so cheap, essentially treating them as humans as much as laborers. At that point, the only reason to hire them over Americans would be their work ethic putting the blame on America's laziness rather than their criminality.

However, blaming the unions for outsourcing is idiotic. Why can't union guys make $40 an hour if the CEO is making millions a year? Who is to say what is fair for them without setting caps on the managers? I think you understand this V, insofar as their is a general greed amongst American industry but to pin outsourcing on Americans asking to be paid more is rather dumb. Wouldn't you push for higher wages if you could?

The auto industry didn't collapse because of the UAW's wages but because the managers failed to innovate and produced shoddy work with intentional obsolesence and they were undercut by Toyota who despite being not unionized paid decent salaries but not so great of benefits.

As for minimum wage and unions in respect to immigrants, illegals aren't paid minimum wage but oddly enough around here anyways they are taxed federally. You can pay a Mexican $6 to do what Americans expect $12 for. As for unions, they've been demonized by the right as to be blamed for the collapse of American industry as Reagan made it possible for outsourcing and countless American countries shipped their capital south or overseas. All the while, V and the rest of America blame those damn workers trying to make a living for their family in aspiration of the American dream, to be the upper class. Apparently, they were too good at achieving the American dream 'cause it took its toll on pissing off the companies who paid them. Minimum wage matters not for illegals and unions are either worthless or non-existent insofar as people no longer support them and companies ignore them.

cry_of_the_banshee

rio wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
Fair worker representation has been surpassed into what is basically politically backed extortion long ago, though. Can paying someone with nothing more (sometimes less) than a High School degree $40+ / hour to push a button on cue really be justified?Along with all the usual perks, of course. Add incompetent CEOs making literally $$$MILLIONS in bonuses alone, and companies shipping jobs overseas, across the border (thanks in part to your local union's demanding more than a fair wage; of course corporate greed plays it's role, as well) and voila! you have disaster. Is it really any wonder the once middle-class majority is receding into an ever lower standard of living? Unemployment is the worst it's been in nearly 30 years.Unions (along with corporate greed and self-rewarding incompetence) are part of the problem; they have been corrupted, ironically, by greed.Two parasites feeding off of each other.
I would guess that you have very little actual evidence for any of this besides the odd out-of-proportion story here and there. That's aside from the highly dubious point about a "fair wage". What is that? And which particular groups of union members are earning above it?Blaming unions for US companies moving manufacturing abroad is pretty cheeky when it's the unions who are pretty much the only people who have been fighting tooth and nail against outsourcing since time immemorial. Unless your reasoning is that they forced those poor, poor multinational corporations to go looking for a workforce that was less likely to stand up to them?Labour is cheaper abroad than in the US (unless it is undocumented migrant labour), so unless you would prefer US workers to be doing the same hours for the same wages as, say, a Chinese or Bangladeshi worker, don't blame the unions for outsourcing. Why not join them on their next protest against it? Or buy union-label stuff?
As for the idea that a minimum wage is the solution: there already is one.

See my last two posts (including the very one you just quoted).
We have a vast supply of slave labor at our disposal already. They're called prisoners. Put them to work in the fields and on the roads; make them earn their three hots and a cot. Why not kill two birds with one stone? Also, the next time some punk thinks it's a good idea to rob the local Kwik-E-Mart, maybe he'll think twice about slaving away for ten-twelves hours a day in the field, be it rain, or 120 degree sunshine. So make that three birds with one stone.
Wow, you're really serious when you say you want an American Putin, aren't you?One of the things I've tended to grudgingly admire about the US right is its argument that by opposing any and all "collectivism" the US has managed to avoid the kinds of dicatorial and authoritarian governments and movements Europeans have had to deal with over the last few centuries. i.e., they may have it wrong but at least they take the liberal and egalitarian values of the US constitution seriously. Quotes like these really reassure me that they don't actually have a point, after all."rio: more pro-American and anti-Russian than Cry of the Banshee." I like the way that sounds!

Actually, if you had understood my post, you'd see that I mentioned corporate greed as half of the factor. Are you suggesting that the labor unions of America are not corrupt and that the unreasonable demands they place on business are not a factor in outsourcing?

You mentioned that benefits should be based on merit; how in the world does that equate with egalitarianism?
Look at your own crumbling country and don't worry so much about mine, you can express all the usual gold-plated marxist platitudes in the world, but it doesn't change a thing; you don't know jack shit about what life in America is like, so take my advice: stick to your UK politics thread. I've lived here and worked here for twice as long as you've been alive, so spare me your naive and juvenile ideological lectures. You think because you watch Jon Stewart and read a few books you know your ass from you elbow?
:lol:
I've also learned that arguing with a communist / marxist / leftist is about the biggest waste of time there is, especially one that hasn't got a clue about the subject (American politics) at hand outside of a few selected liberal textbooks and / or news stories.

cry_of_the_banshee

traptunderice wrote
I had this debate at work yesterday and cutely enough I proposed nearly a similar plan to Rio's; required minimum wage to make their illegal labor not so cheap, essentially treating them as humans as much as laborers. At that point, the only reason to hire them over Americans would be their work ethic putting the blame on America's laziness rather than their criminality.However, blaming the unions for outsourcing is idiotic. Why can't union guys make $40 an hour if the CEO is making millions a year? Who is to say what is fair for them without setting caps on the managers? I think you understand this V, insofar as their is a general greed amongst American industry but to pin outsourcing on Americans asking to be paid more is rather dumb. Wouldn't you push for higher wages if you could?The auto industry didn't collapse because of the UAW's wages but because the managers failed to innovate and produced shoddy work with intentional obsolesence and they were undercut by Toyota who despite being not unionized paid decent salaries but not so great of benefits.As for minimum wage and unions in respect to immigrants, illegals aren't paid minimum wage but oddly enough around here anyways they are taxed federally. You can pay a Mexican $6 to do what Americans expect $12 for. As for unions, they've been demonized by the right as to be blamed for the collapse of American industry as Reagan made it possible for outsourcing and countless American countries shipped their capital south or overseas. All the while, V and the rest of America blame those damn workers trying to make a living for their family in aspiration of the American dream, to be the upper class. Apparently, they were too good at achieving the American dream 'cause it took its toll on pissing off the companies who paid them. Minimum wage matters not for illegals and unions are either worthless or non-existent insofar as people no longer support them and companies ignore them.

Minimum wage is not much, true. But, that's why one aquires a marketable skill.
Treating unskilled labor the same as skilled labor is the pathe to stagnation, after all why improve yourself when the good ol' government will take care of you?

What do you propose as a fair min. wage?
Should some jackoff flipping hamburgers make $12.00 hour?
Seriously?

C_Chulainn

cry of the banshee wrote
traptunderice wrote
I had this debate at work yesterday and cutely enough I proposed nearly a similar plan to Rio's; required minimum wage to make their illegal labor not so cheap, essentially treating them as humans as much as laborers. At that point, the only reason to hire them over Americans would be their work ethic putting the blame on America's laziness rather than their criminality.However, blaming the unions for outsourcing is idiotic. Why can't union guys make $40 an hour if the CEO is making millions a year? Who is to say what is fair for them without setting caps on the managers? I think you understand this V, insofar as their is a general greed amongst American industry but to pin outsourcing on Americans asking to be paid more is rather dumb. Wouldn't you push for higher wages if you could?The auto industry didn't collapse because of the UAW's wages but because the managers failed to innovate and produced shoddy work with intentional obsolesence and they were undercut by Toyota who despite being not unionized paid decent salaries but not so great of benefits.As for minimum wage and unions in respect to immigrants, illegals aren't paid minimum wage but oddly enough around here anyways they are taxed federally. You can pay a Mexican $6 to do what Americans expect $12 for. As for unions, they've been demonized by the right as to be blamed for the collapse of American industry as Reagan made it possible for outsourcing and countless American countries shipped their capital south or overseas. All the while, V and the rest of America blame those damn workers trying to make a living for their family in aspiration of the American dream, to be the upper class. Apparently, they were too good at achieving the American dream 'cause it took its toll on pissing off the companies who paid them. Minimum wage matters not for illegals and unions are either worthless or non-existent insofar as people no longer support them and companies ignore them.
Minimum wage is not much, true. But, that's why one aquires a marketable skill.Treating unskilled labor the same as skilled labor is the pathe to stagnation, after all why improve yourself when the good ol' government will take care of you?What do you propose as a fair min. wage?Should some jackoff flipping hamburgers make $12.00 hour?Seriously?

If it's the only thing available and he needs 12 an hour to survive, then yes.

EDIT:
On a different topic, I'm excited- France just put through a burqa ban, and one of the Swiss cantons is proposing to do the same.

rio

cry of the banshee wrote
rio wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
Fair worker representation has been surpassed into what is basically politically backed extortion long ago, though. Can paying someone with nothing more (sometimes less) than a High School degree $40+ / hour to push a button on cue really be justified?Along with all the usual perks, of course. Add incompetent CEOs making literally $$$MILLIONS in bonuses alone, and companies shipping jobs overseas, across the border (thanks in part to your local union's demanding more than a fair wage; of course corporate greed plays it's role, as well) and voila! you have disaster. Is it really any wonder the once middle-class majority is receding into an ever lower standard of living? Unemployment is the worst it's been in nearly 30 years.Unions (along with corporate greed and self-rewarding incompetence) are part of the problem; they have been corrupted, ironically, by greed.Two parasites feeding off of each other.
I would guess that you have very little actual evidence for any of this besides the odd out-of-proportion story here and there. That's aside from the highly dubious point about a "fair wage". What is that? And which particular groups of union members are earning above it?Blaming unions for US companies moving manufacturing abroad is pretty cheeky when it's the unions who are pretty much the only people who have been fighting tooth and nail against outsourcing since time immemorial. Unless your reasoning is that they forced those poor, poor multinational corporations to go looking for a workforce that was less likely to stand up to them?Labour is cheaper abroad than in the US (unless it is undocumented migrant labour), so unless you would prefer US workers to be doing the same hours for the same wages as, say, a Chinese or Bangladeshi worker, don't blame the unions for outsourcing. Why not join them on their next protest against it? Or buy union-label stuff?
As for the idea that a minimum wage is the solution: there already is one.

See my last two posts (including the very one you just quoted).
We have a vast supply of slave labor at our disposal already. They're called prisoners. Put them to work in the fields and on the roads; make them earn their three hots and a cot. Why not kill two birds with one stone? Also, the next time some punk thinks it's a good idea to rob the local Kwik-E-Mart, maybe he'll think twice about slaving away for ten-twelves hours a day in the field, be it rain, or 120 degree sunshine. So make that three birds with one stone.
Wow, you're really serious when you say you want an American Putin, aren't you?One of the things I've tended to grudgingly admire about the US right is its argument that by opposing any and all "collectivism" the US has managed to avoid the kinds of dicatorial and authoritarian governments and movements Europeans have had to deal with over the last few centuries. i.e., they may have it wrong but at least they take the liberal and egalitarian values of the US constitution seriously. Quotes like these really reassure me that they don't actually have a point, after all."rio: more pro-American and anti-Russian than Cry of the Banshee." I like the way that sounds!
Actually, if you had understood my post, you'd see that I mentioned corporate greed as half of the factor. Are you suggesting that the labor unions of America are not corrupt and that the unreasonable demands they place on business are not a factor in outsourcing?You mentioned that benefits should be based on merit; how in the world does that equate with egalitarianism?Look at your own crumbling country and don't worry so much about mine, you can express all the usual gold-plated marxist platitudes in the world, but it doesn't change a thing; you don't know jack shit about what life in America is like, so take my advice: stick to your UK politics thread. I've lived here and worked here for twice as long as you've been alive, so spare me your naive and juvenile ideological lectures. You think because you watch Jon Stewart and read a few books you know your ass from you elbow? :lol: I've also learned that arguing with a communist / marxist / leftist is about the biggest waste of time there is, especially one that hasn't got a clue about the subject (American politics) at hand outside of a few selected liberal textbooks and / or news stories.

I thought you had gone to work? :lol:

Leave the ad hominems, please. It's pathetic, in all honesty. And given that I'm asking you some quite specific things about arguments you've made, completely irrelevant.

What I'm asking you to do is back up the blanket statements you are making. Where's your evidence that the labour unions of America are corrupt to any extent other than individual examples? Where's your evidence that unions are responsible for outsourcing? On what do you base the argument that union members get above a "fair wage"? The idea of a "fair wage" is not something I'm aware of in economics- what actually is it?

You've lived there for twice as long as I've been alive, so these should be easy questions for you.

Or should I assume you don't actually know all that much about it after all?

rio

By the way, the next time I catch you calling a left-winger smug or patronising, or indeed ill-informed, I shall have great pleasure copy pasting these last few posts of yours. :wink:

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