the post count +1 thread

Thomas

manipulate people to languages are tools

heatseeker

traptunderice wrote
America is a religion-positive environment. I can ignore the tremendous amount of good that Xtianity does because of the guilt and the bullshit damnations that come with whatever aid they give. Condoms would save lives yet the Chruch tells people not to use them. If you can't see how the aid comes with more detrimental effects than positive we simply won't agree. Condoms are "important in the grand scheme of things" when everyone has AIDS. Yeah, you're not going to get it I guess.Who are the "you guys"? Atheists?

It's weird that you think that that outweighs all the good that religious organizations do...I just think that you don't really know how many religious organizations there are that organize relief programs for all sorts of marginalized people. I guess you could say that I'm biased because I'm from America, but so are you so i don't really get what the point is there.

And also, about when people say that atheists can do just as much good as religious people, that's certainly true...key word: can. But they don't. It seems pretty obvious to me that when helping the less fortunate is a fundamental part of your belief system, and you have very strong incentive to follow that system, that you are more likely to do good stuff than if your morality is just whatever you want it to be, with no incentive to follow it.

Goat

heatseeker wrote
And also, about when people say that atheists can do just as much good as religious people, that's certainly true...key word: can. But they don't. It seems pretty obvious to me that when helping the less fortunate is a fundamental part of your belief system, and you have very strong incentive to follow that system, that you are more likely to do good stuff than if your morality is just whatever you want it to be, with no incentive to follow it.

Prove that they don't! Heck, a strong part of the Christian belief system is to love thy neighbour... something that Americans could certainly take more notice of, no? Don't assume that religious people are more likely to be 'better' people than atheists - as Ganesha (I think) said earlier, it has naff-all to do with it.

heatseeker

Goat wrote
heatseeker wrote
And also, about when people say that atheists can do just as much good as religious people, that's certainly true...key word: can. But they don't. It seems pretty obvious to me that when helping the less fortunate is a fundamental part of your belief system, and you have very strong incentive to follow that system, that you are more likely to do good stuff than if your morality is just whatever you want it to be, with no incentive to follow it.
Prove that they don't! Heck, a strong part of the Christian belief system is to love thy neighbour... something that Americans could certainly take more notice of, no? Don't assume that religious people are more likely to be 'better' people than atheists - as Ganesha (I think) said earlier, it has naff-all to do with it.

That's very true, I am definitely talking more about the people who are active in their religions as opposed to just calling themselves whatever. I do think that while there are a ton of atheists that are probably great, nice people, I think that religious people are more likely to take action and try to make the world better. Just my perspective...because really, how many atheists do you know for whom community service is a big part of their lives? I'd be surprised if there were any.

Goat

heatseeker wrote
Goat wrote
heatseeker wrote
And also, about when people say that atheists can do just as much good as religious people, that's certainly true...key word: can. But they don't. It seems pretty obvious to me that when helping the less fortunate is a fundamental part of your belief system, and you have very strong incentive to follow that system, that you are more likely to do good stuff than if your morality is just whatever you want it to be, with no incentive to follow it.
Prove that they don't! Heck, a strong part of the Christian belief system is to love thy neighbour... something that Americans could certainly take more notice of, no? Don't assume that religious people are more likely to be 'better' people than atheists - as Ganesha (I think) said earlier, it has naff-all to do with it.
That's very true, I am definitely talking more about the people who are active in their religions as opposed to just calling themselves whatever. I do think that while there are a ton of atheists that are probably great, nice people, I think that religious people are more likely to take action and try to make the world better. Just my perspective...because really, how many atheists do you know for whom community service is a big part of their lives? I'd be surprised if there were any.

Well, here those who care about community service etc, helping the poor, tend to be towards the left end of the political spectrum, where atheists are quite common. Of course, that's simplifying matters lots, and overall it's impossible to say who does more good - it's a silly argument.

traptunderice

Surprise! I'm an atheist and do a lot of community service, mainly just helping tutor at my old high school but I also volunteer at a no-kill animal shelter. If I had weekends off and lived in the city, I would want to try working at a soup kitchen but it just isn't in my cards right now.

Being an individual and challenging the established religion is also a big teaching of Christianity but a lot of what I see in church is people following the status quo. The term pastor is derived from sheep herding, how does that set you up to learn and take your own path in your faith.

I've been a part of religious organizations who help the needy. I once traveled to an orphanage in Tijuana. What food we brought came with the message to the kids that if you want to get out of the orphanage you have to love Jesus. People were fine giving up their kids to an orphanage which couldn't provide them enough food everyday because it would guarantee their souls were saved. These people made us, Americans, a feast because we were doing God's work when they could've fed those kids for a week on it. It didn't hit me until after I was stuffed that I just ate a kid's meals for two days in a matter of thirty minutes. Two friends and I put plumbing in a lady's house, built her a receding wall to protect her garden and fixed a leak in her roof. Her response was just a fervent indebtedness to us and it wasn't natural.

C_Chulainn

And also, is it good if a person acts morally out of fear of Hell and divine punishment or because his God tells him to, rather than just because he's human and endowed with the basic sentiments of empathy and "justice"?

C_Chulainn

Btw, am I the only one who doesn't see the quoting anymore?

DevotedWalnut

Yeah its messed, check out the reviews. You can't access them from the discussions/threads whatever.

craaaazy

rio

FrigidSymphony wrote
And also, is it good if a person acts morally out of fear of Hell and divine punishment or because his God tells him to, rather than just because he's human and endowed with the basic sentiments of empathy and "justice"?

blah blah.... most atheists do nice things so that they can put it on their cv or because it will make them look good.

Seriously if you actually knew anything about christian charities you wouldn't be suggesting they only do the things they do because of the fear of god. What a load of crap.... :rolleyes:

rio

Yes it's all gone wrong.... what are the haps, peeps?

Rhys

rio wrote
Yes it's all gone wrong.... what are the haps, peeps?

Zad said he messaged Chris about it.

C_Chulainn

rio wrote
FrigidSymphony wrote
And also, is it good if a person acts morally out of fear of Hell and divine punishment or because his God tells him to, rather than just because he's human and endowed with the basic sentiments of empathy and "justice"?
blah blah.... most atheists do nice things so that they can put it on their cv or because it will make them look good.Seriously if you actually knew anything about christian charities you wouldn't be suggesting they only do the things they do because of the fear of god. What a load of crap.... :rolleyes:

I know many Christian charities, and have worked with them on occasion (btw the cv thing is kinda true in my case, I think there are better ways to help people than by going on gap trips to build houses they couldn't possibly build themselves) and maybe it's just the geographical location and abundant catholicism here, but any good deed of any sort is always accompanied by attempted indoctrination. The orphanage here? If the little kids don't say their prayers and pay attention when the priest comes to talk, they don't get their dessert! (that was a satirical description of events, but you get the idea).

traptunderice

@Rio: Are you denying the fact that Christian charity comes with a little guilt and a little bit of coercion and conversion?

rio

@trapt

I'm denying that Christian charities are motivated by the fear of hell or whatever above all else. I'm sure some are, but then to imply that that argument is generalisable seems entirely dubious to me.

And, as FS seems to agree, plenty of atheist do-gooders are also motivated by personal gain.

So I'm just criticising the idea that Christian charities are in some way morally inferior because of the whole "they only do it because god tells them to" line of thinking... that just seems ridiculous IMO.

C_Chulainn

rio wrote
@traptI'm denying that Christian charities are motivated by the fear of hell or whatever above all else. I'm sure some are, but then to imply that that argument is generalisable seems entirely dubious to me.And, as FS seems to agree, plenty of atheist do-gooders are also motivated by personal gain.So I'm just criticising the idea that Christian charities are in some way morally inferior because of the whole "they only do it because god tells them to" line of thinking... that just seems ridiculous IMO.

^ QUOTED RIO ^

It is however linked to the whole greater concept of where morality originates from. For Christians, that is the Bible, where moral imperatives are set down in an "or else" sense. Not following God's commandments (the majority of which are very unethical, and many don't even deal with moral issues in the first place, but with theological ones) leads to divine punishment.
In addition, Christians who claim to get their morality from the Bible yet do not follow scriptural ethos in its entirety are obviously using an extra-biblical criteria to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to use as moral guidance (provided they've ever actually read it).

Goat

Yeah, most non-fundie Christians don't seem to follow the Bible literally, which is a good thing, no?

C_Chulainn

Goat wrote
Yeah, most non-fundie Christians don't seem to follow the Bible literally, which is a good thing, no?

Yes, and proves the point that morality does not come from the Bible. Nevertheless, persisting to follow the Bible to even the small extent it is causes other immoral impacts on society. Holding on to an outdated, archaic piece of ancient literature for any sort of relevant guidance in today's world is bound to fuck up.

rio

@Frigid

I think you're imposing a homogeneous set of motives on a big group of people. Normal activists on the ground for Christian Aid or whoever are not doing what they do just because of the Ten Commandments, surely?... am I taking you too literally here? Joe Charityworker is not digging wells in Africa thinking "yeah, this is REALLY going to get me into heaven, no questions asked!"...

You seem to be suggesting that there is a vast division between the religious and non-religious, both of whom get their concept of morality from entirely different places. This doesn't make sense to me and certainly doesn't seem to be related to Darwinism or evolutionary science, which AFAIK assumes that morality arises naturally in most human beings as a necessary product of the survival of the fittest.

Your last point just seems to be saying "if you can find a Christian that isn't imposing scripture on the people he is helping then HA! he isn't a real Christian". Even if that were true, I don't see the relevance.

C_Chulainn

I'm not saying Christians get their morals from somewhere else. My last post proved that. The problem is that Christians still THINK they're getting their morals from somewhere else. My argument was that the source Christians think they're getting their morals from is in fact very immoral. I can see you my previous posts might have been a bit too convoluted... Basic point I guess is that the Bible is nothing more than ancient literature, no more valid as a moral guide than Norse Sagas or the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the Iliad.

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