Metal Reviews

International socialist society!!

you kind of contradict yourself when you say that you want to protect your culture but also admit that hardly any women wear burkas...

WHO'S WITH ME?

I guess I should have expounded a bit more...I think a lot of the mistrust between Middle Eastern people and the U.S. comes from the fact that up until recently, we have failed to really resolve the conflict. But, the Annapolis Conference (which happened just last month) has apparently began the process towards peace between Israel and the Palestinians. I dunno, I'm just of the opinion that if we solve this problem successfully, a lot of the anti-American sentiment that is going right now in the Middle East will be lessened greatly.

Yes, there's probably some truth in that- In Palestine at least. I'm sure that peace (if it was accompanied by economic and political emancipation also) would short circuit a lot of the support for those such as Hamas.

There's plenty more grievances to go around, however.

i can see why you would think so, but i don't think i contradict myself

Look who's talking. I do understand your post, but if i had to reply to every single bit this discussion would multiply it's size x4 with every reply.... little girl!


All I can say is that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about! I'm also pretty sure that if you ended up in Arnold Swarzenegger's or Angila Jolie's body, your identity would change as fuck - your self image would change, and you chemical balance in your body would be changed as well, influencing your mood and way of thinking.... "first person view"... ha ha are you trying to tell that you are a guy born in the wrong body?!



why don't you read what i wrote?! Anywho, doesn't suprise me that you're some kind of leftwing nut.

I never said "lack of nationalism". I said that being unaware of your cultural roots (values) while replacing it by reletivism resulted in rootlessness, alianation, and ultimatively depression. It is a historical fact. Our school paragraf was changed back in 1975 into the worst kind of hippie crap, in 1993 after rising suicide rate it was changed "back", but not to nationalism as such. Just an cultural selfunderstanding; historical and values derived from that. There's nothing wrong with that, unless you're a hippie or a Immam

That you don't care about your culture is just retarded. It is the fundation for your freedom of expression. Once your country get attacked by terrorist or crazy Immams who want your country to submit to their rules/ideas and limiting your freedom you're are bound to start caring about your country as well, if not i'm certain that you have some lovely immams who'd like to take over your place.
What country are you from anyway?

I don't feel connected as such to my countrymen, it's a matter of values and spirit.
... isn't your coleagues accidental as well?


no, not really. But i certainly wouldn't want to be around them. How can you relate to a human being if you can't see their face, anyway? Dehumanized, a lump of flesh without any face. There's actually been written psychological short stories about that, if i remember correctly. Freaky..


tadaa... worst naïve leftwing political correct humanistic bullshit ever!
As i already pointed out, there's not that many women wearing burkas who decided it themselves. Most of these women was forced to so by her family in early age, and most of them are afraid to put the burka into the closet. We have had several cases already with fathers and brothers who killed their daughter/sister just because she didn't live up to their expectations.
Burka is not beneficial for any women, it is not in her interest and it is not in our economical or principle interest either. When was the last time you saw a woman wearing burka driving a car or maintaning a proper job for that matter!? Have you ever seen a policewoman, a surgeon, doctor, lawyer, shopkeeper, cook, schoolteacher etc etc wearing a burka? Is that freedom? Is it freedom that she can't a husband herself? Is it freedom that she can't decide herself? If you asked these women in privacy they would prefer not to walk around in burkas.
You're probably also all in for pro-female-circumsition, right?! it's part of her cultural and religious identity, right?! You probably don't care about how much pain and suffering is inflicted on these women, or that some of them bleed to death. I guess we are a bad country for making that eligal. but what do i know, i don't have a vagina, for all i know it could be the most wonderful thing for a woman, or rather girl



i would like to point out, that when i say burka i mean something like this:

so an incredibly small minority of people's clothing choice will destroy your culture? o.O

also allowing burqas to be worn isn't the same thing as condoning them being forced on women. also banning them isn't the solution to the problem, it's just trying to treat the symptoms.

For Christ's sake, Kim, if you can't see the difference between a headcovering and Female Genital Mutilation, then something's wrong. And you can be sure that if it's still happening in parts of London, it's happening in your country too.

As far as the whole 'roots' things goes, it's fascism under a different name. All Hitler did was rally a depressed German people around the power of their cultural heritage, and look how that ended up. It's what nationalist groups like the BNP always push, that we would be stronger as a nation if we stayed white and pure, without these foreigners taking our wine, women and jobs. It's all psychological, anyways - the strong white man wanting to see the face of the brown woman to make sure he's not missing anything, the blaming of an easy target for problems that are none of their faults. I hate to sound like I write for the Daily Mirror, but I've never seen a woman in a burqa getting in drunken fights on the streets, like you see all too often in Chavdom.



Serious arguments? With all the 'girl, not woman' jibes? Please. And I'd hardly call this a trivial matter, nor am I the one wasting your time.

To clarify - batshit muslims are muslims that blow themselves up, not ones that wear a certain type of clothing! I'm not exactly in favour of the burqa, but I can certainly see the point of defending it.



Rubbish. Britain gets bombed - life goes on as normal. Spain gets bombed - out goes the Bush-friendly Pres. and in comes the Socialist. Remind me, how many times has Denmark been bombed by Muslims?

I do know the difference, but both burka and female circumsition are oppressive and a matter of culture and religious identity - not to the women but to her family.
I'm not that naïve to think that it doesn't happen in my country, it is wellknown that some families still take their daughters outside the country to get the circumsition done.
Burkas is good for nothing, they halt integration and keep the women from socializing properly - they are kept away in the ghettos and we are not interested in segregation, that way you'll only make cultural frictions greater. It's a different matter with scarf, despite some might say it's oppressive, they can still socialize, get educated, maintain a job and contribute to society.

and your babbling about violence, fascism, Hitler, and women in burkas makes no sense. I've not said anywhere that women in burka was the cause of trouble in the street. I have not said that I want to streamline my country either when it comes to clothing.
"ah.. so you're against burkas?! roots?! Youuu sonnuva bitch national nazi fascist wannabe monkey ass-rapist!" - well, it may be partly true, i like monkey ass, but my vote still goes to the left wing.

We have not no bombings yet, we have learned from other countries mistakes and hindered several terrorist attacks already from crazy muslims who didn't like our country, or rather, they didn't like our secular country with freedom of speech. We have had several Immams trying to make every other country pissed at us.
This kinda piss danish ppl off. If you get political asylum in a country, with more benefits than you could have ever dreamed off, but don't like the country, you can just fuck off, instead of trying to bomb innocent ppl. Luckely some of these morrons has been send out of country.
And when i say culture and mention roots you obviously think of some kind nationalism, fascism and aryan übemench and what not. But I suggest you come to our country to see for yourself. We are rarther peaceful.



Edit: This thread sure has gained alot of popularity, but I guess I lost mine in the process ha ha

I wasn't accusing you of fascism, Kim, just making the point.

The short story Minister's Black Veil by Hawthorne is about a minister who wears a black veil to hide his sin but by doing that he creeps the town out. At the end, he condemns everyone for letting their sin be uncovered. I think that is kind of the ideology as to why the Muslim women wear burkas isn't it, to hide their sins?

I do think that you should respect their culture and beliefs but I want to commend you for trying to maintain your ancestral culture in the face of globalization. The problem is your coming off as a bigot with a 'don't like my country, get out!!' attitude.

I think it's more an extreme version of Judaism's modesty laws. Looking at women gives rise to sinful thoughts, and so to avoid these the woman covers herself up. Whilst Judaism stops at arms, legs, and hair (for married women only) some sectors of Islam go that bit further.

I think banning burqas will create more cultural friction than leaving them legal

I think not. It'll only concern a few ppl. We have also made arranged mariage harder by adding a 24-law, meaning immigrant girls can't get married till they are 24. This has helped alot of women, and they are thankful for that. Once they get to be this age, they have become more aware of themselves and what they want. They have been together with their danish friends, and learned from our ways, in the end they refuse to put up with their parents old fashioned wishes. If you get married at a young age you just learn to accept your fate decided by others, and that's wrong.
The same thing can be said about the burka. It's only annoying for her parants. But as time pass by they would learn to accept it as well. She can still wear a scarf, and this would allow a better integration and socialisation in the long run.

It's is worth mentioning, that while danish parents (western countries in general) raises their children by giving them more freedom the older they get, muslim parents tend to do it the opposite way. As child they have lot's of freedom and grow older the parents start to take more controle or put up very defined rules/boundries. This alone causes alot of problems, cuz second generation immigrant cannot understand why their fellow buddies are allowed to do all sort of things, while they cant. Many rebel against their parents because of this. But that's another story.

I know that some would see this as a violation of the principles of free will, freedom of speech etc. However, some times you have to chose the lesser evil to help out some ppl. One hand you have the violation of basic principles, on the other hand you have suppression of women.
Another example of this could be the american civil rights that gives ppl the right to defend their property with all means necessary. This means many ppl have guns in their homes. Unfortunately, most ppl getting murdered are done so by guns in affection by their husband or wife, or mere maniacs on the street. The question is, do you ban guns and thus violates some basic principles or do you keep allowing guns?
Another example could be in school. Is it not a violation of free speech when a teacher doesn't allow children to swear and use foul languange. Perhaps, but in the long run this would benefit the children.



this argument is kinda universal. Homicide by guns and knife, drugs - you name it, are mere symptoms of stress, depression, jalousy, hatred and so on. It doesn't make them more right. Banning guns, knives, and drugs does not make the symptoms go away either, but it would keep alot of ppl alive, and cause less trouble in general.




I think you should try and understand it in the original context. Muslims who plan to bomb innocent ppl because they don't like my country should get the fuck out. They shouldn't be here in the first place. If that make me a bigot, then I guess I am a bigot. I wish I could be more tolerant

Source?


It's REALLY that totally inconceivable to you that some people may wear that thing for reasons other than being forced to by their parents? If you go to a strange different culture do you feel more, or less Danish? Would you want to reenforce, or diminish your danishness?


You really think that this relentless drumbeat is helping anyone out at all? Hysteria about Muslim customs such as that which you are displaying is less likely to draw Muslims into Danish culture than it is to make native Danes more hostile to Muslims. You can't think you're the only developed country to face these dilemmas? Maybe you should learn from the experiences of other countries. Look at France, where even the headscarf is banned from many public places, let alone the burkha. Maybe first generation immigrants were happy to go along with this, but are their children- who were born in France and are citizens just as much as a white Catholic Parisian- now a contented group of Francophiles? A great many of them are not, because they feel quite justifiably that French society has been totally unwilling to make space for their cultural traditions in the public sphere.

Guns aren't comparable to a piece of clothing.


Exactly. nobody would really care about it if anti-burqa people weren't like "OMG BAN THEM".

We had a similar thing in Canada with wanting Muslim women to reveal their faces to vote, where prejudice turned a non-issue into some big thing :X

I just did this in my History course, how weird!



And this in Sociology! Freaky! This part however is regarding socialisation of children. It is not acceptable to have swear words in many cultures because it offends too many people, therefore society dictates that this should be, erm, 'conditioned' out of kids from an early age. If I had a six year old kid, I wouldn't like them calling me a ponyfucker!

Opinions are formed when an individual listens to/learns from any form of socialisation and are rewarded when displaying a trait acceptable in their society. This has happened to every person alive today, to ever exist and forever more. Essentially, each society has it's own set of unwritten rules and is taught to kids by teachers, media, parents, religion, peers and so on. However, there will always be a conflict of opinion or views between those socialisation factors.

For example you know it's not acceptable in society to be sexist or racist, but we all know both of those prejudices are evident in all of our day to day lives. Why is this? Your school says that sexism is wrong, but your Uncle Frank hates woman because Auntie Irene ran off with a lesbian, hence referring to women as bitches all the time!. Influence, influence, influence everywhere. Eventually you end up with a mish mash of thought and therefore you decide if your left or right of the subject to save arguement!

The national identity thing is a big factor to racial prejudice, because as one big collective, the majority likes to think they live in the best country on the planet. Look how many people get worked up over football for Hell's sake!

To be the best, you sometimes have to tread on others to get there, hence a huge amount of ignorance or no tolerance for the foriegn cultures that conflict with your own society and culture. Another thing to consider, if there was a war right now between your country and whomever, you're not going to run into the arms of your enemy for safety. You rally around for your own country, right? That's because of the socialisation your country has 'brainwashed' into you from an early age and you defend what you know before asking questions later.

Could this be why all religious factors mentioned in this thread are rubbing people up the wrong way? Is it because something different goes against your views or society? Could it be we are too lazy or too set in our ways to try to understand those differences?

No matter what creed, colour, race or religion you are, the human race as a whole is far too arrogant in their own ability to realise that their savage and tribal instincts are very much present, hence all the wars and racism. Add to the fact that wherever you are, you can talk to anyone on this planet using this intynet thing and suddenly the world seems a load smaller and more claustrophobic.

1. What's the marriage age for natives?
2. Free speech is not equal to children swearing. Free speech means you can call the President of America a cunt and not lose your job/house/social status because of it.
3. Ah, because Muslims that want to bomb people are going to just come out and say it. Sure.

plz... would you be happy to married away to somebody you didn't know.

I have no source in english, no. I base that statement on interviews from books, from lectures by ppl dealing with muslim children in school and general tendencies in our society among second and third generation immigrants.
But i'm pretty sure you don't have any sources that proves that women are happy to be in an arranged marriage either. Arguing that it is a matter culture and thus okay for the women is bullshit and naïve.



source plz
If I went to a country where i couldn't express my individuality or listen to my music, i wouldn't be there. Such country would not accept me in the first place, anyway.
But i do understand you point, I would be more danish and I would reenforce it, since i believe i would be right. But this wouldn't be the case for most of the countries in europe. However, when ppl come up here with an old-fashioned way of thinking they would have to adjust to us, elsewise our education system, law system and civil rights would have to be changed fundamental.

But you're also right. Some women doesn't wear scarfs because they were forced by their parents, mainly danish women who convert who doesn't know it is a custom from the middle east. Anybody else are more or less put into these clothes by their parents at a young age, around 10-12, if that is not the case then it's weird it happens in danish schools. It is also funny that some parent send their children to koran schools in their summer vacation.
" But that is something they decide themselves, you bigot!!" - yes! of course it is children just can't wait to put those fancy clothes on




i actually think it does.. i would not go to same extend as a certain political party who think the scarf is equal to the svastika. And you're wrong. Muslims are drawn in danish culture, a great many approved our freedom of speech f.ex. after the cartoon incident a union for moderate muslims was founded, as opposite to all those thought they would rather smash thing and look very angry. Young muslims rebel against their parents old-fashioned ways, muslim women start to work, educate themselves etc.
What happens in France is not really problem, and i don't think we can learn anything from that incident. Denmark is another country with another culture, scarfs will never be elligal, only for politicians perhaps, cuz it is custom to keep religion in the private sphere for several reasons as already mentioned before. Changing that back would be a step in the wrong direction for a modern country.




plz, Noodles. I didn't say so. It was a ethical example, about chosing the lesser evil.



you don't understand. As a sociaty we need to ensure that everybody has the same rights and options. That only a few women wears burka does not make the problem smaller. It's still there, and the complications following in it's foodstep.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to make ppl showing their face when voting. If ppl started showing up anonymously it wouldn't be possible to see who was voting, and if anybody was cheating.




indeed. You proved my point.
Freedom of speech does allow swearing and foul languange, even offending ppl, at least in my country - i know that freedom of speech is not the exact same think in america, however, sociaty doesn't - it's still a violation of a basic principle, but for the better. You could also just call it a social regulation of a principle and not violation.


i have nothing much to add to the rest.

Yes, I would rally for my country if I believed i was on the right side. If we started bombing sweden for no reason, I would not. If sweden started to bomb us, killing innocent ppl, i would. It's rather simple, actually.
You're underestimating our school system, I can tell you that much. We try to teach children to be critical thinking, independant, creative, reflecting, democratic, resonsible, tolerant, and familiar to our cultural roots/ history of ideas leading to our present state (philosophy, cultural life, history) - it's nothing to bitch about, the latter goes for american and british schools as well, heck most other schools around the world - in order to move forward you need to know where you stand and where you came from. The skills and tools taught in school is to be used to secure our economical future. We need ppl without sheep mentality, creative ppl who can think for themselves.
And just because it went wrong in germany doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to love your country and love to live in it. I personally wouldn't want to be anywhere else right now... mainly because all my stuff is here



1. 18 years, i think.
2. already replied on this. But no it's not, but fundamental it is- you should be able to express yourself however you like.
3. Yes, that would be most preferable. If not, we'll have to catch them in process of planing.