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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:56 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
heatseeker wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Nobody is being oppressed here, not these days, and not for quite some time now


This is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. You don't think all the poor/homeless in this country are oppressed? Those who can't pay for health insurance?

It seems like you're adopting the position that people are poor because of some fault of theirs, which is "just wrong".


Really?
Some are some aren't...
whose fault is it that they are poor, then?
See oppression means being held down. Who is being held down, by who and how?
I am not talking about less than perfect circumstances (which can almost always be overcome with a little motivation, the desire for a better life and the will to take the necessary steps to make it happen, not to mention the many programs that exist set up to help the poor ), but actual oppression.
Examples please.
...


Blahblahblah.

This is a joke, and really not worth rebutting.
Same old nickle-plated platitudes.

RACISM!!!
SEXISM!!!
WORKER OPPRESSION!!!

:lol:
Get the fuck outta here.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:08 pm 
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I could post stats stating that the schools that get the most fed money are the ones failing the hardest, that there are tons of minority AA / set aside programs, that women are out-earning men in some areas, that workers have every option avaiable to them to better their lot that everybody else has, but why bother?
It would be a waste of my time and you're so blinded by insane ideology it wouldn't even register anyway.
You cannot cite one single example of how people are being systemitcally oppressed, all you have are the usual whiny, crybaby left wing parroted talking points.


Well, here you go, hope this helps:

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:46 pm 
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What no Stay Free?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:07 pm 
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stevelovesmoonspell wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Goat wrote:
Not my most knowledgeable topic, but does there need to be? In the recent UK census here trans people were instructed to put the sex they recognise themselves as, whatever their birth certificate says. Ticking both or neither was also allowed. I suppose the situation there with large numbers of eunuchs is different, but still.

Of course, being against both ID cards and censuses (censii?) in general means I don't see why people should have to declare any aspect of their identity to the state. Categorising people like this in Pakistan, hardly a progressive state, is pretty suspicious, no?
Ummm ticking both or neither means you still have to conform to a binary by recognizing that you either are not included or have to divide your identity across two boxes. The problem with sex is that if it is simply genital then there are 16 forms or something like that which genitalia can take on and if it is asking gender than gender is obviously not simply two groups. I think the extra box goes along way to challenging the binary and rather than having to recognize themselves as either against or outside of the binary, having your own box recognizes that you are just you.

Categorizing people is not inherently evil. If they use this categorization to put people in ghettoes or commit genocide then yes but what does the state knowing that these people are out there result in harm to those people. If anything people can be more open about it possibly if the state recognizes it and defends it. How can you be opposed to govt-issued IDs?


:lol: Jesus Christ, is there not one post in this thread were you are not advocating for more state power? What's next Trapt do you want cameras in everyones house now?
What the fuck are you on about? I'm talking about the census and IDs. How is that any shape or form authoritarian? Where else am I advocating state power?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:13 am 
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How is the state forcing you to carry a card to prove your own identity authoritarian? Hm, let's see now...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:36 am 
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http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... ?page=full

Quote:
House lawmakers voted overwhelmingly last night to strip police officers, teachers, and other municipal employees of most of their rights to bargain over health care, saying the change would save millions of dollars for financially strapped cities and towns



Quote:
But unlike those efforts, the push in Massachusetts was led by Democrats


Quote:
“It’s pretty stunning,’’ said Robert J. Haynes, president of the Massachusetts AFL-CIO. “These are the same Democrats that all these labor unions elected. The same Democrats who we contributed to in their campaigns.


Nope, no conflict of interest here...

Let's see if the media in this country make as big of a deal out of this as they did with what happened in Wisconsin.
Will we see mass protests? Demonizing of the elected officials? Death threats, etc?
We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:31 am 
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emperorblackdoom wrote:
heatseeker wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Nobody is being oppressed here, not these days, and not for quite some time now


This is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. You don't think all the poor/homeless in this country are oppressed? Those who can't pay for health insurance?

It seems like you're adopting the position that people are poor because of some fault of theirs, which is "just wrong".


Says the Keynesian economist!


wat

The only part of Keynesian theory I've advocated is that the economy is demand-constrained during recessions. Which has nothing to do with anything here...

cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
heatseeker wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Nobody is being oppressed here, not these days, and not for quite some time now


This is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. You don't think all the poor/homeless in this country are oppressed? Those who can't pay for health insurance?

It seems like you're adopting the position that people are poor because of some fault of theirs, which is "just wrong".


Really?
Some are some aren't...
whose fault is it that they are poor, then?
See oppression means being held down. Who is being held down, by who and how?
I am not talking about less than perfect circumstances (which can almost always be overcome with a little motivation, the desire for a better life and the will to take the necessary steps to make it happen, not to mention the many programs that exist set up to help the poor ), but actual oppression.
Examples please.
...


Blahblahblah.

This is a joke, and really not worth rebutting.
Same old nickle-plated platitudes.

RACISM!!!
SEXISM!!!
WORKER OPPRESSION!!!

:lol:
Get the fuck outta here.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

Healthcare is horrendous in the US. If you argue that, I don't know what to say. The very definition of systematic oppression.

http://www.edtrust.org/issues/pre-k-12/closing-the-gaps

Website devoted to educational inequalities in the US. Peruse for your enjoyment. Do you seriously think that poor kids get the same quality of education as more privileged ones?

Your disdainful attitude towards anyone that disagrees with you and machismo bullshit is childish and not productive at all. Not even sure why we argue with you, anyways. Whatever...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:54 am 
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Ist Krieg
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heatseeker wrote:
emperorblackdoom wrote:
heatseeker wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Nobody is being oppressed here, not these days, and not for quite some time now


This is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. You don't think all the poor/homeless in this country are oppressed? Those who can't pay for health insurance?

It seems like you're adopting the position that people are poor because of some fault of theirs, which is "just wrong".


Says the Keynesian economist!


wat

The only part of Keynesian theory I've advocated is that the economy is demand-constrained during recessions. Which has nothing to do with anything here...

cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
heatseeker wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Nobody is being oppressed here, not these days, and not for quite some time now


This is the fundamental point of disagreement, I think. You don't think all the poor/homeless in this country are oppressed? Those who can't pay for health insurance?

It seems like you're adopting the position that people are poor because of some fault of theirs, which is "just wrong".


Really?
Some are some aren't...
whose fault is it that they are poor, then?
See oppression means being held down. Who is being held down, by who and how?
I am not talking about less than perfect circumstances (which can almost always be overcome with a little motivation, the desire for a better life and the will to take the necessary steps to make it happen, not to mention the many programs that exist set up to help the poor ), but actual oppression.
Examples please.
...


Blahblahblah.

This is a joke, and really not worth rebutting.
Same old nickle-plated platitudes.

RACISM!!!
SEXISM!!!
WORKER OPPRESSION!!!

:lol:
Get the fuck outta here.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

Healthcare is horrendous in the US. If you argue that, I don't know what to say. The very definition of systematic oppression.

http://www.edtrust.org/issues/pre-k-12/closing-the-gaps

Website devoted to educational inequalities in the US. Peruse for your enjoyment. Do you seriously think that poor kids get the same quality of education as more privileged ones?

Your disdainful attitude towards anyone that disagrees with you and machismo bullshit is childish and not productive at all. Not even sure why we argue with you, anyways. Whatever...


First:
The state of health care is not systematic oppression.
Unless you mean forcing everybody to buy health insurance.
Illustrate how our health care system is "oppressing" anyone.

Second:

Image

Source: US Dept of Education.


Quote:
Nationwide, raw per-pupil spending is similar across racial and ethnic groups. The small differences that do exist favor non-white students. After breaking down the data by region, the non-white funding advantage becomes more pronounced. In the Northeast, for example, blacks receive over $2,000 more than whites in per-pupil funding per year. The region with the smallest differences is the South, where spending on black and Hispanic students is only slightly higher than on whites.

Adjusted for cost of living, the differences narrow. Asian and Hispanic students receive slightly less money than whites overall, while blacks receive slightly more. Regional differences persist after the adjustment, especially in the Northeast



Third:
You and your cohorts lies (after lies after lies) are what are not productive.
I get tired of the same old leftist lies you and the other constantlt pour forth.
It has nothing to do with "disagreement", it has everything to do with you not knowing what the fuck you ae alking about.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:21 am 
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It probably also has a lot to do with a constant diet of left leaning literature, opinion pieces and academic theories that have inflated their confirmation bias. We all suffer from it to a certain degree, however.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:38 am 
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http://www.articlesbase.com/education-a ... 60879.html

top 5 in california (public schools)

#1 - William Faria Elementary School ($7,983 Per Pupil)

#2 - Nelson S. Dilworth Elementary School ($7,983 Per Pupil)

#3 - Millikin Elementary School ($9,313 Per Pupil)

#4 - John M Gomes Primary School ($8,389Per Pupil)

#5 - Chadbourne Elementary School ($8,389Per Pupil)

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/CA/schoo ... e=bottom10

bottom five in California

Los Angeles County Special Education ($61,623Per Pupil)

Mission Education Center ($9,691Per Pupil)

Stone Corral Elementary ($10,265Per Pupil)

Mojave River Academy ($2,103Per Pupil)

Berenece Carlson Home Hospital ($11,459 Per Pupil)

Or you can do a little research on your own.


http://www.education.com/schoolfinder/

Type in a district, or city or state or even a school. It will give you a ranking (1 lowest and 10 highest) and an amount spent per pupil.
I have found that the only disparity (when one exists; the funding is not all that disparate) is that the lower performing schools actually receive more funding per pupil.

So much for oppression.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:41 am 
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How are schools in the US financed, can I ask? Is it a certain amount per pupil, is it performance-based, is there more funding directed at failing institutions or the less well-off? Find all this much more interesting since becoming a school governor.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Goat wrote:
How are schools in the US financed, can I ask? Is it a certain amount per pupil, is it performance-based, is there more funding directed at failing institutions or the less well-off? Find all this much more interesting since becoming a school governor.


It's a combination of local / state and federal spending. As to what factors determine who gets how much, I really don't know.

But an elementary school with a rating of 9 in Spokane, WA (the #1 education friendly city in the US according to parenting.com anyway) receives $8,210 per pupil.

http://www.education.com/schoolfinder/u ... ry-school/


Now, go to Detroit, take a school rated with a 1 (lowest) and we see that the expenditure per pupil is $13, 284.

http://www.education.com/schoolfinder/u ... institute/

Doing random city searches, by and large, produces the same results; if anything, poorer regions with lower performance ratings receive more funding, not less.

The point being of course, that anybody that says that there is systematic oppression happening in the US (or any other modern western country, for that matter) deserves nothing other than to be laughed at in derision.
On top of the basics, there are numerous programs set up for the less fortunate among us, after all we spend billions upon billions on such programs.

As for the notion that our health care system is oppressing people, we have Medicare and Medicaid for people that cannot afford health insurance. And there are programs other than that (healthy families is one of them) for those that earn too much for Medicare but not enough for regular health insurance.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Goat wrote:
How is the state forcing you to carry a card to prove your own identity authoritarian? Hm, let's see now...
SB 1070 much?

Anyways.... Is it just me or is 1:06 of this video from Huckabee frightening even if he is saying we should be indoctrinated at gunpoint jokingly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1O1dvN8 ... r_embedded

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:36 pm 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/opini ... ool&st=cse

Quote:
Going back to the famous Coleman report in the 1960s, social scientists have contended — and unquestionably proved — that students’ socioeconomic backgrounds vastly outweigh what goes on in the school as factors in determining how much they learn. Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute lists dozens of reasons why this is so, from the more frequent illness and stress poor students suffer, to the fact that they don’t hear the large vocabularies that middle-class children hear at home.


Yeah, showing that we spend a lot of money on schools doesn't really prove anything. The school system is fundamentally flawed no matter how much money we put into it...the majority poorer kids are simply fucked from the start when it comes to education. Not saying that I have a solution, but to deny the existence of the problem is kind of ridiculous...most people, like the guy above, speak of it like it's self-evident.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:43 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
Goat wrote:
How is the state forcing you to carry a card to prove your own identity authoritarian? Hm, let's see now...
SB 1070 much?


You say that like I'm in favour of it. Which I'm not.

traptunderice wrote:
Anyways.... Is it just me or is 1:06 of this video from Huckabee frightening even if he is saying we should be indoctrinated at gunpoint jokingly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1O1dvN8 ... r_embedded


Jokes = worse than a TOTALITARIAN STATE. The loony left, ladies and gentlemen.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:43 pm 
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( :ph34r: )


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Btw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:08 pm 
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heatseeker wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/opinion/26nocera.html?scp=5&sq=school&st=cse

Quote:
Going back to the famous Coleman report in the 1960s, social scientists have contended — and unquestionably proved — that students’ socioeconomic backgrounds vastly outweigh what goes on in the school as factors in determining how much they learn. Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute lists dozens of reasons why this is so, from the more frequent illness and stress poor students suffer, to the fact that they don’t hear the large vocabularies that middle-class children hear at home.


Yeah, showing that we spend a lot of money on schools doesn't really prove anything. The school system is fundamentally flawed no matter how much money we put into it...the majority poorer kids are simply fucked from the start when it comes to education. Not saying that I have a solution, but to deny the existence of the problem is kind of ridiculous...most people, like the guy above, speak of it like it's self-evident.


How does that equate to oppression? Nobody has ever said that certain groups have more of an uphill battle than others due to life's circumsatnces. What I want to know is, how does the spectre of an authority or system, through abuse of power, intentionally holding a particular group down through force or fear of imprisonment (hell, even through denial of assistance, when needed) come into play?

It could be that those students, at least some of them, come from families headed by losers. There are some people out there that are just that: losers. that may be one of the reasons they are in a lower income bracket. not saying that that is always the case, but in my experience, it quite often is.
I grew up in an unfavorable "socioeconomic background", and you know what I saw?
The ones that actually went to class, paid attention and had parents that gave a rat's ass did well.
The ones that cut school, got high before school, goofed off in class and came from households where the parents were general losers that didn't give a fuck didn't do well.

Life isn't a game of musical chairs where the chairs outnumber the players two to one and everyone's a winner, you know.

I am still waiting for tangible examples of systematic oppression.
Modern day examples, that is, and not ones from a hundred years ago.


Last edited by cry of the banshee on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Goat wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Goat wrote:
How is the state forcing you to carry a card to prove your own identity authoritarian? Hm, let's see now...
SB 1070 much?


You say that like I'm in favour of it. Which I'm not.

traptunderice wrote:
Anyways.... Is it just me or is 1:06 of this video from Huckabee frightening even if he is saying we should be indoctrinated at gunpoint jokingly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1O1dvN8 ... r_embedded


Jokes = worse than a TOTALITARIAN STATE. The loony left, ladies and gentlemen.
I know you're not wholly serious. But IDs are a way of carrying information so that you can let people of proper age into bars, you can prove your address when picking a package up at the post, you can prove to the bank you are the person on the name of your account when withdrawing money, and yes sometimes IDs are used when cops pull you over. Identity matters in our society. No, people should not be harassed for not having identification but identification serves a purpose in our society.

And although he laughs like he was joking, I don't think he was joking and it's a really weird thing to say and the person he is referring to Barton I believe is a fucking crackpot. I would take Trump's fiascoes and Ron Paul's theoretical wrongness over the religious right any fucking day.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:59 pm 
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*sigh* The problem is that these ID cards become the fixation, and natural losses or unnatural forgeries get innocent people into a whole lot of trouble. Having a single ID like this makes fraud and even terrorism (!) easier, not harder, as challenging forgeries or stolen identities gets harder if not near-impossible. Relying on ID cards to such a degree is simply foolish, not to mention the social and economic and civil liberties costs of maintaining the database necessary, etc. And if they're not mandatory, then what's the point of them? I'm not arguing against proof of identity like passports, please note, but mandatory ID cards...

...although it must be said that reliance on any form of proof of ID/age can lead to problems in some form or another. Take a personal example - I can't buy alcohol in some shops because of a ridiculous rule over here that they have to "think 25" (ie, think that the person looks over 25 or else challenge for ID) despite the legal minimum age being 18. It's pretty obvious that I'm over 18, but because of this moronic rule the state is preventing me from doing something I am legally allowed to do. Yes, I could carry a passport around with me all the time, but considering the many legal and financial costs of getting it stolen or lost, why on earth should I take that risk just so I can prove I'm legally allowed to do something which is obvious to anyone with a brain anyway?

And I think he is a bit of a weirdo, yes, but you're basically accusing him of being an evil lizard in human skin who secretly wants to force people at gunpoint to do stuff, and covers it by laughing. What if it was Obama making the same joke? COTB would be making a similar point to yours, and you'd be all "don't be ridiculous"...


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