The General Politics Thread

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:01 pm

Goat wrote:

And what exactly has happened to Europe? You might have missed it but there are Muslims in the US, too. I mean, dear god, footbaths! Thus fell Rome, giving the invaders footbaths! Prepare ye the gold reserves and the bunkers, wow.

Not yet, but they are outbreeding you guys in a big way (plus they are still emigrating, so it has an exponential quality to it), so in a few generations, you just may find your flippancy come back to bite you in the ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_E ... troversies

Quote:

In several other EU countries, such as Sweden,[26] the United Kingdom,[27] and the Netherlands, Muslim groups had asked to apply Islamic inheritance, marriage and divorce laws. Such requests have brought up considerable controversy in those countries. In 2010 a United States diplomatic leak published by Wikileaks showed that a survey conducted by the UK Center for Social Cohesion on 600 Muslim students at 30 universities showed that 32 % supported killing in the name of Islam [28]and that 40% want Sharia law in the United Kingdom.[29]

In 2004 Europe's first bank to offer Sharia compliant financial services, the Islamic Bank of Britain, opened its doors in Britain.[30] Other countries which have Islamic banking institutions are Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina,[31] Denmark, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland and Ireland

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:07 pm

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:

Goat wrote:

And what exactly has happened to Europe? You might have missed it but there are Muslims in the US, too. I mean, dear god, footbaths! Thus fell Rome, giving the invaders footbaths! Prepare ye the gold reserves and the bunkers, wow.

Apart from honor killings, blowing up your buses and trains, Sharia law, and local tribunal courts I'll suppose that this comment facetious and not taking into account the fact that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Historically, Europe has been conquered by the Moors, and as such especially with the more fundamentalist modern variant of Islam has resulted in a lessening of the standard of living, being unable to exercise free speech in criticism of the bastard religion, and varying population increases from 25% of the population to even higher. This is not to project some apocalyptic scenario for Fortress Europe, so much as it is to see a gradual decline in Western society due to the invasion of these Muslim dogs.

Not to mention the human rights issues and issues with women's rights that are bound to arise if these savages gain more hold in either Europe or the US. I would have assumed less tolerant opinions, given the religion is itself intolerant and seeks to subjugate by its simplest tenets. My original assertion thus remains if the muslim population of either Europe or the US, cares anything i preservation of their backward fallacy, the why don't they police themselves and give the radicals who are in obviously greater numbers than reported by idiot multiculturalists less of a chance to propagate their virus.

You know, steve, you have in recent times become probably my favorite poster here.
Too many people are too afraid to say the things that need to be said. I blame the emasculation of the west, but it's good to see it hasn't touched everyone. No other populace in the world would even entertain the things that our's is allowing.

North From Here · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:51 pm

cry of the banshee wrote:

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:

Goat wrote:

And what exactly has happened to Europe? You might have missed it but there are Muslims in the US, too. I mean, dear god, footbaths! Thus fell Rome, giving the invaders footbaths! Prepare ye the gold reserves and the bunkers, wow.

Apart from honor killings, blowing up your buses and trains, Sharia law, and local tribunal courts I'll suppose that this comment facetious and not taking into account the fact that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Historically, Europe has been conquered by the Moors, and as such especially with the more fundamentalist modern variant of Islam has resulted in a lessening of the standard of living, being unable to exercise free speech in criticism of the bastard religion, and varying population increases from 25% of the population to even higher. This is not to project some apocalyptic scenario for Fortress Europe, so much as it is to see a gradual decline in Western society due to the invasion of these Muslim dogs.

Not to mention the human rights issues and issues with women's rights that are bound to arise if these savages gain more hold in either Europe or the US. I would have assumed less tolerant opinions, given the religion is itself intolerant and seeks to subjugate by its simplest tenets. My original assertion thus remains if the muslim population of either Europe or the US, cares anything i preservation of their backward fallacy, the why don't they police themselves and give the radicals who are in obviously greater numbers than reported by idiot multiculturalists less of a chance to propagate their virus.

You know, steve, you have in recent times become probably my favorite poster here.
Too many people are too afraid to say the things that need to be said. I blame the emasculation of the west, but it's good to see it hasn't touched everyone. No other populace in the world would even entertain the things that our's is allowing.

I'm not sure how closely Steve's impassioned rhetoric and your data corroborate though. 32% in favor of Islamic killing and 40% in favor of Sharia law is scary, but at the same time not a majority. Do I think the multiculturalists have overreached? Sure. Do I think immigration has been allowed in too great a number? Definitely.

But there is a Muslim element that does not agree with the extremists, and a middle way appears to be the best way to not give the extremists ammunition. Further alienating the large communities already within Europe doesn't seem helpful.

Muslim civilization probably peaked in the 11th Century, and some of are aware how deleterious arch conservatism has been on their society.

Goat · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:55 pm

Oh FFS. Read sensible sources rather than nutters like Bat Ye'or, pls. The Times -

Quote:

"The vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists. They aren’t militant and they aren’t zealots. They are not anything really, any more than the rest of us. And it is simply wrong to focus continually on the words of the Koran or of this or that preacher, in the expectation of finding something alien or alarming. There are people in the Jewish community who have argued that “marrying out” can be described as a “silent holocaust”. If we chose to understand world Judaism from such sentiments, we would find ourselves in the interesting company of today’s sophisticated anti-Semites."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... ?print=yes

And others -

Quote:

"...“Muslims” don't actually have more babies than other populations do under the same circumstances. The declining population-growth rates that will lead Europe to a falling overall population in seven years – as I documented here two weeks ago – are not confined to native populations. In fact, immigrants from Muslim countries are experiencing a faster drop in reproduction rates than the larger European population."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... 711186.ece

And

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslim ... e.aspx?p=1

I like how you accuse us of dropping women's rights issues as a result of Islam when a woman who tried to kill herself whilst pregnant is accused of murder in the US. Apparently this is the result of Islamic integration into American society, is it? You guys clearly have more problems than we!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... nt-accused

As for some of Steve's comments, I'm genuinely outraged.

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:

Apart from honor killings, blowing up your buses and trains, Sharia law, and local tribunal courts I'll suppose that this comment facetious and not taking into account the fact that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim.

You equate terrorist bombings with tribunal courts?! And call me facetious! Equal signs of Islamic entryism, are they? Fuck off! I can imagine the reaction if I blamed 9/11 on American imperialism, kindly have some respect for the innocent dead in countries that are not your own.

As for this 'fact' that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, wow. I live in an area of Manchester densely populated with Asians, and have never felt safer. Presumably all of the people I pass on the way to work, the people in whose stores I shop, the people who live yards away from me are all hiding their innate hatred of my white skin and decadent western ways with perfect acting skills, waiting for the word from Mecca to start cutting us white people up with swords?

Bollocks, the whole lot of it. Your anti-immigration theories have been the cause celebre of many throughout history, all seeking to blame their problems on those foreign and new, whether Irish, Jewish, Asian, Eastern-European or Islamic. And yes, certain sections of said races and religions and ethnic groups have committed crimes, and yes, all have made themselves annoying to others. But blaming all Muslims for Islamism is like blaming white people for Nazism, something I'm sure we can all agree is beyond ridiculous. You call me an "idiot multiculturalist" for refusing to believe conspiracy theories about how Muslims plan to outbreed white people... wow, well, I have names for you too. We'll see who's right in a decade, if our throats haven't been slit in our sleep. Which they won't be.

Seriously you guys, I have more respect for you than this deserves. Trapt's communism and Adveser's satanism have better groundings in reality than some of what you spout. Polls and rhetoric prove nothing but wrongheaded bias.

noodles · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:00 pm

cry of the banshee wrote:

our's

come on now this isn't even a thing

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

In France, we've made a tradition of not showing which religion we belong to

Is this actually a thing? (Not arguing, actually interested!)

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:23 pm

noodles wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

our's

come on now this isn't even a thing

Am I supposed to know what the fuck you are talking about based on a single word?
Elaborate.

noodles · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:30 pm

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/di ... /ours.html

my tolerance only goes so far

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:31 pm

Goat wrote:

Oh FFS. Read sensible sources rather than nutters like Bat Ye'or, pls. The Times -

Quote:

"The vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists. They aren’t militant and they aren’t zealots. They are not anything really, any more than the rest of us. And it is simply wrong to focus continually on the words of the Koran or of this or that preacher, in the expectation of finding something alien or alarming. There are people in the Jewish community who have argued that “marrying out” can be described as a “silent holocaust”. If we chose to understand world Judaism from such sentiments, we would find ourselves in the interesting company of today’s sophisticated anti-Semites."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... ?print=yes

And others -

Quote:

"...“Muslims” don't actually have more babies than other populations do under the same circumstances. The declining population-growth rates that will lead Europe to a falling overall population in seven years – as I documented here two weeks ago – are not confined to native populations. In fact, immigrants from Muslim countries are experiencing a faster drop in reproduction rates than the larger European population."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... 711186.ece

And

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslim ... e.aspx?p=1

I like how you accuse us of dropping women's rights issues as a result of Islam when a woman who tried to kill herself whilst pregnant is accused of murder in the US. Apparently this is the result of Islamic integration into American society, is it? You guys clearly have more problems than we!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... nt-accused

As for some of Steve's comments, I'm genuinely outraged.

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:

Apart from honor killings, blowing up your buses and trains, Sharia law, and local tribunal courts I'll suppose that this comment facetious and not taking into account the fact that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim.

You equate terrorist bombings with tribunal courts?! And call me facetious! Equal signs of Islamic entryism, are they? Fuck off! I can imagine the reaction if I blamed 9/11 on American imperialism, kindly have some respect for the innocent dead in countries that are not your own.

As for this 'fact' that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, wow. I live in an area of Manchester densely populated with Asians, and have never felt safer. Presumably all of the people I pass on the way to work, the people in whose stores I shop, the people who live yards away from me are all hiding their innate hatred of my white skin and decadent western ways with perfect acting skills, waiting for the word from Mecca to start cutting us white people up with swords?

Bollocks, the whole lot of it. Your anti-immigration theories have been the cause celebre of many throughout history, all seeking to blame their problems on those foreign and new, whether Irish, Jewish, Asian, Eastern-European or Islamic. And yes, certain sections of said races and religions and ethnic groups have committed crimes, and yes, all have made themselves annoying to others. But blaming all Muslims for Islamism is like blaming white people for Nazism, something I'm sure we can all agree is beyond ridiculous. You call me an "idiot multiculturalist" for refusing to believe conspiracy theories about how Muslims plan to outbreed white people... wow, well, I have names for you too. We'll see who's right in a decade, if our throats haven't been slit in our sleep. Which they won't be.

Seriously you guys, I have more respect for you than this deserves. Trapt's communism and Adveser's satanism have better groundings in reality than some of what you spout. Polls and rhetoric prove nothing but wrongheaded bias.

hey it's your country / continent... did you not read the wiki article I supplied?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_E ... troversies

I don't put too much stock in editorials, as they are almost always biased. And the multi-culti trance is evry strong in Europe, so take that as you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_E ... rojections

Quote:

Don Melvin writes that, excluding Russia, Europe's Muslim population will double by 2020. He also says that almost 85% of Europe's total population growth in 2005 was due to immigration in general.[18][20] Omer Taspinar predicts that the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim will shrink by 3.5%, due to the higher Muslim birth rate.[21] Esther Pan predicts that, by 2050, one in five Europeans are likely to be Muslim.[21][22]

Professor Philip Jenkins of Penn State University estimates that by 2100, Muslims will compose about 25% of Europe's population. But Jenkins admits this figure does not take account of the large birthrates amongst Europe's immigrant Christians

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:35 pm

noodles wrote:

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/ours.html

my tolerance only goes so far

You're an idiot... and actually my tolearnce with your mincing childish bullshit has gone far enough.
Again, supply an argument or be dismissed, fairy.

Quoting a single word and saying "come on now this isn't even a thing" is idiotic.

Again, elaborate.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:37 pm

noodles wrote:

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/ours.html

my tolerance only goes so far

Really, loser?
So I put an apostrophe in the wrong place... this coming from one that has seemingly never learned about punctuation.

Get lost, you fucking little nematode.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:44 pm

Like the coward he is noodles has run off... maybe he needs a good cry.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:49 pm

Anyway @ zad:
Those numbers may not be that big, but the muslim population is very vocal in demanding that their host country submit to their religious beliefs...
and they have already made some progress in getting what they want.

From good ol' wiki:

Quote:

In the United Kingdom there exist five sharia courts in England, in London, Manchester, Bradford, Birmingham and Nuneaton, operating under the 1996 Arbitration Act. While legal Muslim tribunal courts had been starting in August 2007, the first official sharia court was opened in September 2008.[33] By June 2009 the Daily Mail reported that there were 85 sharia tribunals operating in Britain. This figure was based on a report by academic and Islamic specialist Denis MacEoin [34] published by Civitas, the Institute for Civil Society. Potential rulings, postulated by MacEoin, include:[35][36]

"that no Muslim woman may marry a non-Muslim man unless he converts to Islam and that any children of a woman who does should be taken from her until she marries a Muslim".

approval of "polygamous marriage"

"a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances".

in fifty years, it's not so far-fetched to say that they will hold more political power, thereby further imposing their will upon your country.

But, like I said, it's your country and if it doesn't bother you, it's none of my business.

Goat · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:24 am

I'm just astonished that supposedly sensible people are always willing to put forth such spurious evidence in support of their individual conspiracy theories. Look at what you're telling me - arbitration courts exactly like Jewish beth dins have been allowed, and ooh, we get potential postulations from the likes of Denis MacEoin, who writes novels about necromancy and black magic in his spare time. Evidence! :rolleyes:

Look, obviously, integrating Islamic citizens into mainstream culture isn't always easy. But it's a battle that's being slowly won, despite nutty freak-outs from far left and right. Treat people as individuals, accept that not every member of a certain race or religion is going to blow themselves up, and recognise humanity for what it is, and it's a battle that will be won. Suppress liberties, take away religious freedom and damage already crippled economies by restricting immigration? You create the sort of society that the minority of fanatic Islamists desire.

Bruce_Bitenfils · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:33 am

noodles wrote:

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

In France, we've made a tradition of not showing which religion we belong to

Is this actually a thing? (Not arguing, actually interested!)

It's called "laïcité" (secularism), and it's clearly written in our constitution. Basically, it is said that you shall not be threatened, discriminated or endangered regarding religious stuff, as soon as you do not trouble public order and shut the fuck up about your beliefs (except in churches, mosques, blah blah blah). I'm exaggerating a bit, it's more complicated than that, but this is the idea. And we're more than happy with it.

And just to be clear, what I originally plus one'd in Stefan's post was that Islam here doesn't seem to be that big a deal, because in the end our laws, French laws, are overall obeyed. Trouble makers are few and, if needed, taken care of.

But the whole debate that followed then, is beyond me.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:37 am

Goat wrote:

I'm just astonished that supposedly sensible people are always willing to put forth such spurious evidence in support of their individual conspiracy theories. Look at what you're telling me - arbitration courts exactly like Jewish beth dins have been allowed, and ooh, we get potential postulations from the likes of Denis MacEoin, who writes novels about necromancy and black magic in his spare time. Evidence! :rolleyes:

Look, obviously, integrating Islamic citizens into mainstream culture isn't always easy. But it's a battle that's being slowly won, despite nutty freak-outs from far left and right. Treat people as individuals, accept that not every member of a certain race or religion is going to blow themselves up, and recognise humanity for what it is, and it's a battle that will be won. Suppress liberties, take away religious freedom and damage already crippled economies by restricting immigration? You create the sort of society that the minority of fanatic Islamists desire.

I honestly really couldn't care less; it's your country, so whatever.

Maybe the idea of different laws for different groups just seems bizarre to me, but hey, you guys knock yourselves out with that.

Oh, and nice ad hom argument re the guy that writes about the occult... so those numbers are false because he has other interests. Got it.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:48 am

Goat wrote:

Quote:

Treat people as individuals

Seems to me if you wanted to do this, there would be one law / court system, and not seperate ones for... different groups.

Tell me, do any other groups besides jews and muslims get their own tribunal system?

What makes them so special?

The Annoying Frenchman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:53 am

Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:

noodles wrote:

The Annoying Frenchman wrote:

In France, we've made a tradition of not showing which religion we belong to

Is this actually a thing? (Not arguing, actually interested!)

It's called "laïcité" (secularism), and it's clearly written in our constitution. Basically, it is said that you shall not be threatened, discriminated or endangered regarding religious stuff, as soon as you do not trouble public order and shut the fuck up about your beliefs (except in churches, mosques, blah blah blah). I'm exaggerating a bit, it's more complicated than that, but this is the idea. And we're more than happy with it.

And just to be clear, what I originally plus one'd in Stefan's post was that Islam here doesn't seem to be that big a deal, because in the end our laws, French laws, are overall obeyed. Trouble makers are few and, if needed, taken care of.

But the whole debate that followed then, is beyond me.

I tolerate every religion so long as it doesn't hurt anybody. Problem is, they all do or did or will do harm...

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:15 am

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Weak-hiri ... 3.html?x=0

Quote:

Just 18,000 net jobs were created in June, the fewest in nine months. The unemployment rate rose to 9.2 percent, the highest rate of the year, the Labor Department said Friday.

Quote:

"June's employment report doesn't have a single redeeming feature," said Paul Ashworth, an economist at Capital Economics. "It's awful from start to finish."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/oba ... 52202.html

Quote:

"The economy as a whole just isn't producing nearly enough jobs for everybody who's looking," Obama said in prepared comments in the White House Rose Garden. He cited "tough headwinds" that are exerting a drag on the economy, including natural disasters, high gas prices, economic turmoil in Europe, and state and local government budget cuts

Yeah, it's everybody and everything else's fault. So much for taking responsibilty. Why does this not surprise me?

Damn.

Looks like the stim was a bust, after all.
Worst administration since Carter.

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:16 am

Anyway.
Zad:
Of course your firsthand knowledge of your own country supercedes whatever I have read on the subject. I'll give you that.
As you know, I expect the same concession from those abroad that try to lecture me on how, and why things are what they are here.
So, that's that for me.

As for noodles:
I apologize to everyone that frequents this forum for my display of hostility above.
Except noodles; you should know by now you taunt the bull you get the horns. If you had cared to add anything of substance to any given discussion in the politics thread, maybe you'd get treated less roughly. Pointing out stupid grammatical errors in a serious discussion about politics is just trolling. And you should know this.

noodles · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:47 am

Sorry, I didn't mean my comment to be provocative, just pointing out a typo I thought was funny.

Don't really have much to contribute to the debate. I don't have a problem with inoffensive Muslim stuff like praying 5x a day, but I do have a problem with forcing women to wear veils/burkas (although I think women should be able to choose to wear them, so I'm against banning them outright). Having Sharia law courts seems sketchy but I say this not knowing anything about Sharia law. I think this is a really poor argument:

Quote:

See, Zad, when you a woman goes to a muslim country, she's forced to wear the veil (if only by the disaproving looks if she doesn't). If we respect their customs, shouldn't they repect ours?

Since "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", not "do unto others as they do unto you" and such like. Zad pointed that out though.

Most of the issues that have come up with respect to Islam in Canada have been non-issues, or have had simple solutions. eg Muslim women not wanting to show their face to men working at voting booths (non-issue because you can vote without showing your face via mail, or easy solution you could make sure to have at least one woman working at a polling station).

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