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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:36 pm 
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I don't understand the above post, maybe I wasn't following properly?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Mintrude wrote:
Zad wrote:
I'm coming around to the PETA camp, especially after my decision to join the Green Party here when my finances are sorted out better. One of the animal rights manifesto points is to close zoos, and when you see the effect that captivity can have on aminals, especially of the big cat variety, few would argue.


You're on the road to being one of those grave desecrating ALF nuts, Zad. :P

But in all seriousness, it's certainly a worthy cause, despite the fact that some supporters get all smug and superior and generally drive people away.


I used to be a big mocker of grave descreting ALF nuts but now I'm starting to think that there's about three people that fit that description in the country... the media blows what they do out of proportion in order to taint all the perfectly reasongable animal rights dudes with that brush.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Karmakosmonaut wrote:
PETA and the Spanish government are retarded left-wing airheads with no regard for the value of civilisation whatsoever.


wtf is all this defending civilisation bullshit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Faffel wrote:
Does this mean we can classify black people as part of the great ape families, then?


eh?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Zad wrote:
I'm coming around to the PETA camp, especially after my decision to join the Green Party here when my finances are sorted out better. One of the animal rights manifesto points is to close zoos, and when you see the effect that captivity can have on aminals, especially of the big cat variety, few would argue.


I am glad you are going to join the greens... but what happened to the "we have to support labour no matter what because the tories will be worse" line? :P


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:04 pm 
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rio wrote:
I used to be a big mocker of grave descreting ALF nuts but now I'm starting to think that there's about three people that fit that description in the country... the media blows what they do out of proportion in order to taint all the perfectly reasongable animal rights dudes with that brush.
I agree which leads me to wonder why people are such avid haters of PETA and animal rights.
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Does this mean we can classify black people as part of the great ape families, then?
Seems like someone has been posting while kicking back a few beers.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Zoos are fucking terrible, people that go see them deserve a napalm strike on their homes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:40 am 
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Ist Krieg
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traptunderice wrote:
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Does this mean we can classify black people as part of the great ape families, then?
Seems like someone has been posting while kicking back a few beers.


well, in his defence, in Victoria you see a black person about as often as you see a great ape


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:21 am 
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Faffel wrote:
Does this mean we can classify black people as part of the great ape families, then?


Weel, indeed, ALL people is part of the great ape families.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:42 am 
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rio wrote:
Zad wrote:
I'm coming around to the PETA camp, especially after my decision to join the Green Party here when my finances are sorted out better. One of the animal rights manifesto points is to close zoos, and when you see the effect that captivity can have on aminals, especially of the big cat variety, few would argue.


I am glad you are going to join the greens... but what happened to the "we have to support labour no matter what because the tories will be worse" line? :P


Heh, because although I still think the Tories will be worse than Labour, it's about time I made an effort to break the 'oh, no-one will vote for them, so why should I?' nonsense... and the Lib Dems just aren't krieg enough. They should have played to their strengths, and got Cable to lead the party, not this increasingly-wanky Clegg character. Especially since he's not named after a cool X-Men character.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:43 am 
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rio wrote:
Faffel wrote:
Does this mean we can classify black people as part of the great ape families, then?


eh?


Indeed. Cue explanation from Faffel that it was a joke that we didn't get, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:14 pm 
traptunderice wrote:
rio wrote:
I used to be a big mocker of grave descreting ALF nuts but now I'm starting to think that there's about three people that fit that description in the country... the media blows what they do out of proportion in order to taint all the perfectly reasongable animal rights dudes with that brush.
I agree which leads me to wonder why people are such avid haters of PETA and animal rights.



I don't hate animal rights, i just hate PETA; They favor animals over human beings, they teach children stupid shit.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article ... rticle=134

and oh, on of the leaders of the organazation have diabetes, her medicin has been tested on animals, despite their effort to make other people looks like villains if they use products tested on animals.

I really don't get why anybody would join PETA, they are simply retarded. They are other animal organisations who spend their resources better and who do more for the animals.



http://www.helpinganimals.com/wildlife_ ... thants.asp

this is also great fun:
http://www.petakids.com/

i remember it said once that chickens are much smarter than dogs and cats - to keep children from eating chickens.


Dago wrote:
Zoos are fucking terrible, people that go see them deserve a napalm strike on their homes.


ha ha, indeed. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Astaroth wrote:
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=134
The only one off that list that is truly wrong is no. 5 because it is most likely falsifying information. The rest of the list is nothing more radical than any other activist group or some form of policy extrapolated to coincide with their core beliefs so they don't seem hypocritical.
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and oh, on of the leaders of the organazation have diabetes, her medicin has been tested on animals, despite their effort to make other people looks like villains if they use products tested on animals.
Just because everyone in the group isn't strictly devout to the message doesn't take away from that message. She could justify choosing to live rather than following the message by spreading the message to more people.
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I really don't get why anybody would join PETA, they are simply retarded. They are other animal organisations who spend their resources better and who do more for the animals.

But they obviously don't have the PR skills to spread the message. PETA is like the Christianity of animal rights; big, hypocritical at times but they get the message out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Hmm, looking at that link of yours:

Quote:
1) PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group’s overall goal as “total animal liberation.” This means no meat, no milk, no zoos, no circuses, no wool, no leather, no hunting, no fishing, and no pets (not even seeing-eye dogs). PETA is also against all medical research that requires the use of animals.


No meat, milk, zoos, circuses, wool, leather, hunting or fishing isn't that bad. Fine, I'm not a vegetarian but I could quite happily stop eating meat if I wanted to. I practically never have milk, there's evidence that shows that it stops having beneficial effects for humans from about the age of 10. What's wrong with being against animal testing? The one thing I disagree with there is the seeing-eye dogs, although hopefully we'll have robots doing it soon.

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2) Despite its constant moralizing about the “unethical” treatment of animals by restaurant owners, grocers, farmers, scientists, anglers, and countless other Americans, PETA has killed over 14,400 dogs and cats at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. During 2005, PETA put to death over 90 percent of the animals it collected from members of the public.


Putting an animal down can be much more ethical than letting it live, especially if it's going to be illtreated.

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3) PETA has given tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and other violent criminals. This includes a 2001 donation of $1,500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF), an FBI-certified “domestic terrorist” group responsible for dozens of firebombs and death threats. During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory. In his sentencing recommendation, a federal prosecutor implicated PETA president Ingrid Newkirk in that crime. And PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich told an animal rights convention in 2001 that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”


Athough it's impossible to be sure if Bruce was serious when he said that, otherwise giving money to terrorists is bad, yes, assuming the money was given after the bombings et al.

Quote:
4) PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, often waiting outside their schools to intercept them as they walk to and from class-without notifying parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: “Your Mommy Kills Animals!” PETA brags that its messages reach over 2 million children every year, including thousands reached by e-mail without the permission of their parents. One PETA vice president told the Fox News Channel’s audience: “Our campaigns are always geared towards children, and they always will be.”


Well, why not? Religions and corporations target children, why can't an organisation geared towards animal rights?

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5) PETA has used a related organization, the PETA Foundation, to fund the misnamed Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a deceptive animal rights group that promotes itself as an unbiased source of medical and nutritional information. PCRM's president also serves as president of the PETA Foundation.


So?

Quote:
6) PETA runs campaigns seemingly calculated to offend religious believers. One entire PETA website is devoted to the claim-despite ample evidence to the contrary-that Jesus Christ was a vegetarian. PETA holds protests at houses of worship, even suing one church that tried to protect its members from Sunday-morning harassment. Its billboards taunt Christians with the message that hogs “died for their sins.” PETA insists, contrary to centuries of rabbinical teaching, that the Jewish ritual of kosher slaughter shouldn't be allowed. And its infamous “Holocaust on Your Plate” campaign crassly compares the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide with farm animals.


Why is being told that Jesus was vegetarian offensive? It's silly, certainly, but offensive? Considering that there are churches that protest at the funerals of gay people, I think a little of their own medicine isn't so horrific. As for the Jew thing, it was rather crass, and ritual slaughter done right doesn't cause the animal pain. Of course, since they don't want animals bred for food, PETA'll be against this.

Quote:
7) PETA has repeatedly attacked research foundations like the March of Dimes, the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, and the American Cancer Society, because they support animal-based research that might uncover cures for birth defects and life-threatening diseases. PETA president Ingrid Newkirk has said that “even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we would be against it.”


Well, this is just weighing up the viewpoints, isn't it? If you knew for sure that animal testing WOULD provide a cure for AIDS, then would it make it ok? Note that animal-based testing MIGHT uncover cures - they have no way of knowing, and asking for experiments on animals simply because it 'might' provide a cure is ridiculous. If we experimented on humans we're far more likely to find cures.

So, all in all, not that retarded.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:45 pm 
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rio wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
PETA and the Spanish government are retarded left-wing airheads with no regard for the value of civilisation whatsoever.


wtf is all this defending civilisation bullshit.

It is not bullshit. When apes are in certain respects pulled up to the level of a human, the level of the human is devalued.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Zad you seriously just defended a whole bunch of terrible practices because religion does the same shit. Religion has always been a crock of shit from the get-go and using some of the worst human attitudes in the world to defend animals is insane. Animals don't have any rights. They are not human beings. What is next for peta? trying to intervene on animals natual behaviour to eat each other? Humans are animals. It is our nature to act as predators when in our own interest, such as hunger, clothing, et al. I seriously can't believe people defend PETA because other unscrupulous businesspeople are scumbags so PETA are free to become scumbags too. Thats like saying murder is okay because a lot of people commit murder worldwide. We live in a country of law and order and corporate terrorists, no matter what their agenda are undefendable.

Furthermore, where are the PETA supporters priorities? we have starving children and they are worried about animals? give me a fucking break. Claiming zoos are a terrible atrocity (and PETA doesn't hessitate to associate zoos and the food industry to the holocaust) is simply nonsense. We were very naive a half-century ago about how to properly care for animals and we know better now. Look at the brooklyn zoo and other great programs that not only keep certain species in existance, but give those animals the kind of life they would only find in their native habitat. We give those animals the kind of life that they can't have in the wild, but doesn't stray from their nature whatsoever. PETA thinks it is evil to use animals to make money to care for the animals, which is precisely what a zoo does. PETA exploits animals more than anyone really if you think about it. They constantly lie about their political position to celebrities to gain noteriety for their cause, which exploits those people too and likely causes them money. For instance, I wouldn't buy a motley crue product if there was a possibility that pam anderson is making some kind of alimony or otherise profiting from tommy's royalties because she supports corporate terrorists.

My dog is a happy and well-taken care of animal. I would hate imagine the possibility of every dog, cat and other domesticated (which means they naturally are defenseless and can't care for themselves in the wild) running around on the streets startving because PETA thinks this is good policy.

What is their position? they certainly will never have enough leverage to instill any political policy change and human nature being what it is we will do what we want. They use the simply old formula that guilt equals money, in their pockets.

PETA is a fraud. There is no way that they have the money to buy off celebrities through endorsement deals but can't buy some land in the middle of nowhere and set up an animal sanctuary.

They try to use a politically viable philosophy that everyone supports (undue, unjust and unnecessary violence against animals - cruelty for cruelties sake, not for industry or trade, but just bad treatment for whatever reason, like dogfighting) to further a very radical agenda that practically no one supports. It is the old game where you play on emotion to force - through coersion or outright lies - people into supporting a cause they would otgherwise be very much opposed to. How many pet-owners contribute money to PETA? quite a few! how many want their animals taken away from them? probably none. This is thier flaw. They have a very radical circle that controls the organization and a public face that lies about what that position really is. This is fraud. It is not acceptable.

_________________
I love the Queen.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:04 pm 
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Zad you seriously just defended a whole bunch of terrible practices because religion does the same shit. Religion has always been a crock of shit from the get-go and using some of the worst human attitudes in the world to defend animals is insane.


I wasn't defending it, I was pointing something out. Reading a site like that, you'd expect revelations such as 'PETA heads secretly rape kittens'. Instead, they target children. There's a hell of a difference, and if that is all you're going to accuse them of, it reeks of desperation, surely?

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Animals don't have any rights. They are not human beings.


Of course they have rights. You go on to argue that humans are animals, thereby shooting yourself in the foot...

Quote:
What is next for peta? trying to intervene on animals natual behaviour to eat each other? Humans are animals. It is our nature to act as predators when in our own interest, such as hunger, clothing, et al.


Ooh, the slippery slope argument. Who said they were doing that? Anyways, just because humans are bastards doesn't mean they have to be.

Quote:
I seriously can't believe people defend PETA because other unscrupulous businesspeople are scumbags so PETA are free to become scumbags too. Thats like saying murder is okay because a lot of people commit murder worldwide. We live in a country of law and order and corporate terrorists, no matter what their agenda are undefendable.


I never said that. That's just silly. I was pointing out the differences before, not saying anything as ridiculous as bold.

Quote:
Furthermore, where are the PETA supporters priorities? we have starving children and they are worried about animals? give me a fucking break.


It's not like PETA supporters support ONLY PETA and NO-ONE ELSE. You could use the same argument for practically any other charity out there that doesn't make the saving of starving children their # 1 priority.

Quote:
Claiming zoos are a terrible atrocity (and PETA doesn't hessitate to associate zoos and the food industry to the holocaust) is simply nonsense. We were very naive a half-century ago about how to properly care for animals and we know better now. Look at the brooklyn zoo and other great programs that not only keep certain species in existance, but give those animals the kind of life they would only find in their native habitat. We give those animals the kind of life that they can't have in the wild, but doesn't stray from their nature whatsoever. PETA thinks it is evil to use animals to make money to care for the animals, which is precisely what a zoo does.


Fine, zoos have come on since they were first designed, but it's the principle that PETA's against.

Quote:
PETA exploits animals more than anyone really if you think about it. They constantly lie about their political position to celebrities to gain noteriety for their cause, which exploits those people too and likely causes them money. For instance, I wouldn't buy a motley crue product if there was a possibility that pam anderson is making some kind of alimony or otherise profiting from tommy's royalties because she supports corporate terrorists.


Celebrities are idiots. If they want to lend their support to something, why not to animal welfare, rather than the Church of Latter-Day Saints or whatever? And dude, the fact that you're even thinking about buying a Motley Crue product is :rolleyes: It's a pretty darn corporate thing to do, is buying music from a massive brand like MC.

Quote:
My dog is a happy and well-taken care of animal. I would hate imagine the possibility of every dog, cat and other domesticated (which means they naturally are defenseless and can't care for themselves in the wild) running around on the streets startving because PETA thinks this is good policy.


Who says that'll happen? PETA won't take your pets away and let them run free in the streets, ffs.

Quote:
What is their position? they certainly will never have enough leverage to instill any political policy change and human nature being what it is we will do what we want. They use the simply old formula that guilt equals money, in their pockets.


Why accept that something cannot be changed? Oh, wait, speaking to an American.

Quote:
PETA is a fraud. There is no way that they have the money to buy off celebrities through endorsement deals but can't buy some land in the middle of nowhere and set up an animal sanctuary.


I'm sure a fair few do it for free. I know Christina Ricci did after they started a hate campaign for a photoshoot where she wore fur.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:04 pm 
Zad wrote:
No meat, milk, zoos, circuses, wool, leather, hunting or fishing isn't that bad.

...

Well, why not? Religions and corporations target children, why can't an organisation geared towards animal rights?
...


... they have no way of knowing, and asking for experiments on animals simply because it 'might' provide a cure is ridiculous. If we experimented on humans we're far more likely to find cures.

So, all in all, not that retarded.


i think 'retarded' is a pretty good description...

well, good luck with your propaganda machine. I hope that we all are prohibited from eating meat, go to the zoo and appreciate animals, protect our children from retarded propaganda and that we all die from deceases that we weren't able to cure, because the little wabbit was released into the woods and live happily ever after - untill it was eaten by an evil foxy loxy.

And thus started a new era, where all the vegatarians that were left hunted down every single predator in the world with their skinny arms and pale skin in order to make room for all the nice animals. Ahh.. paradise is truely within our grasp! Die eval animals, die!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:00 pm 
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Karmakosmonaut wrote:
rio wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
PETA and the Spanish government are retarded left-wing airheads with no regard for the value of civilisation whatsoever.


wtf is all this defending civilisation bullshit.

It is not bullshit. When apes are in certain respects pulled up to the level of a human, the level of the human is devalued.


That doesn't make sense at all... how is the "value of the human" even defined? What possible effect could the extension of basic rights to animals reduce it? Sounds like dubious philosophising with no empirical basis whatsoever...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:00 pm 
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tbh saving starving children and becoming vegetarian are roughly the same thing because meat is a very inefficient food source

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article ... rticle=134
i was actually expecting a lot worse lol. i still maintain that peta are douchebaggy

also there's a big difference between the systematic torture of factory farms and humans being "naturally predators" or animals killing each other in the wild etc. i'm not against killing animals for food and think that ethical, organic, local farming is neato and wouldn't have a problem with hunting if it were possible to feed people without making all the animals go extinct.

rio wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
rio wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
PETA and the Spanish government are retarded left-wing airheads with no regard for the value of civilisation whatsoever.


wtf is all this defending civilisation bullshit.

It is not bullshit. When apes are in certain respects pulled up to the level of a human, the level of the human is devalued.


That doesn't make sense at all... how is the "value of the human" even defined? What possible effect could the extension of basic rights to animals reduce it? Sounds like dubious philosophising with no empirical basis whatsoever...


but we gave ourselves rights and giving those rights to monkeys makes us less special. AND I DONT WANNA BE LESS SPECIAL


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