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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:23 pm 
Zad wrote:
Seinfeld26 wrote:
I don't really think homosexuality is immoral, as long as it is natural to the gay (ie. he's not just doing it to be "different"). I didn't say that I myself thought it was immoral, I was just pointing out why other Christians often perceive it as immoral. I don't really consider oral sex immoral either. I don't want to get into my views of masturbation, since it's such a difficult issue - I've seen probably every opinion left and right of it, and I've seen some pretty horrible arguments both for and against it.

My particular school didn't have gays getting picked on or being beaten up, but I also went to a Catholic school which had very strict policies against bullying and teasing. However, I know plenty of people who went to schools where gays did have to endure daily beatings and teasing.


I suppose it depends on your definition of 'immoral'. Being all krieg and STN!ist, I don't really see morals as applicable as much as ethics, which is of course totally different. Gay sex may or may not be a good idea, but that hardly makes it immoral. Ditto masturbation, self-mutilation, etc etc. I try not to cut myself with broken glass and randomly scream 'SLAYERRRRR!' at people in the streets because of my personal ethical code, which includes trying not to hurt myself and not looking like an idiot. Morals don't really come into the equation.


I'd agree with you here.

Quote:
Call me a generalisationist, but I don't think that most Christians see homosexuality as immoral because of the spread of STDs or it can hurt if you're not relaxed or whatever. They don't like it because they've been told not to like it, that it's icky and wrong and God hates it.


Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who fall under this catagory. And what you just described about things like the spread of STD's ties into where I have concerns about homosexuality.

Quote:
Daily beatings?! Didn't those in charge - teachers - do anything? I hate to harp on, but a gay teen being beaten at a school would make national news here, whether he was beaten for being gay or because he owed someone money.


I'm surprised you haven't heard about the "failing education system in America." There are a lot of failing schools, where kids essentially get A's just for showing up to class every day, and where the teachers pay little attention to what goes on with their students (bullying, teasing, etc). I live near Detroit. And statistically, only 24% of inner-city Detroit students actually finish high school. That right there should say a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Seinfeld26 wrote:
Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who fall under this catagory. And what you just described about things like the spread of STD's ties into where I have concerns about homosexuality.


Ironically, you can partially blame the spread of AIDS in Africa on the Catholic brainwashing about condoms. It's amazing, on a sidenote, how little African news matters to people. The prime minister of somewhere said that he would personally decapitate any homosexuals found in his country, whilst a little while ago another was blaming AIDS on condoms themselves!

Concerns over the spread of HIV etc are just as applicable in 'straight' sex as in gay. Even here, alas, where there are stories of crisp packets being used as birth control devices.

Seinfeld26 wrote:
I'm surprised you haven't heard about the "failing education system in America." There are a lot of failing schools, where kids essentially get A's just for showing up to class every day, and where the teachers pay little attention to what goes on with their students (bullying, teasing, etc). I live near Detroit. And statistically, only 24% of inner-city Detroit students actually finish high school. That right there should say a lot.


Blimey. I've seen 8 Mile but I didn't know it was that bad.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:05 pm 
Zad wrote:
Seinfeld26 wrote:
Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who fall under this catagory. And what you just described about things like the spread of STD's ties into where I have concerns about homosexuality.


Ironically, you can partially blame the spread of AIDS in Africa on the Catholic brainwashing about condoms. It's amazing, on a sidenote, how little African news matters to people. The prime minister of somewhere said that he would personally decapitate any homosexuals found in his country, whilst a little while ago another was blaming AIDS on condoms themselves!

Concerns over the spread of HIV etc are just as applicable in 'straight' sex as in gay. Even here, alas, where there are stories of crisp packets being used as birth control devices.


Condoms aren't 100% fail-safe. So, even if you are using a condom, you still need to stay on your guard. That goes for straight-sex too. Since you obviously don't want to be knocking up a woman when she clearly isn't ready for a child (even if you are married to her).

Quote:
Seinfeld26 wrote:
I'm surprised you haven't heard about the "failing education system in America." There are a lot of failing schools, where kids essentially get A's just for showing up to class every day, and where the teachers pay little attention to what goes on with their students (bullying, teasing, etc). I live near Detroit. And statistically, only 24% of inner-city Detroit students actually finish high school. That right there should say a lot.


Blimey. I've seen 8 Mile but I didn't know it was that bad.


Unfortunately, at least in Detroit, it is. Actually, at my university, the dean (about three years ago) wanted to admit more inner-city students. So, when I was trying to study in the Undergrad Library, I'd have to endure some of these students loudly playing their rap music, talking jive, etc. Finally, the school broke down and increased security in the library so that there'd be no more of this. The story goes on. My friend was a Graduate Teaching Assistant teaching a Basic Writing class with a few of these students. And, low and behold, many of them could barely put a cohesive sentence together - and yet they were college freshmen. No joke. I could tell you plenty of other horror stories about the state of education in Detroit, but I think you get the idea.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:23 pm 
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I'm really glad I decided to go the Honors/AP route. I'm also really glad I'm in a district where the education system doesn't totally blow ass. I generally enjoy being educated. :dio:

And I've never personally witnessed any gay harassment at my school, but I've heard some rough language from some of the knuckle-dragging redneck/jock crowd. Like, "He's a fag?" "Yeah." "Like, an actual faggot?" "Yeah bro" "Shit, man, I wanna kick his ass."


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:37 pm 
Here's a question for you, Seinfeld:

If we consider homosexuality to be a violation of both human nature and the way God made us, then what about gay animals and animals in strickly gay relationships? Are those animals immoral and sinful too? And will God be angry with them because they don't behave like they were supposed to?

If we forget about child molestation, rape and incest for a moment; How can sex and mastubation be immoral? What right do ppl have to accuse other ppl of being immoral when they are not harming anyone? Sure thing, BDSM and double anal fisting can hurt (especielly with barbwire around the fists), but it's their own choice.
How this can even be a question about morality in the first place is beyond me. But then again, I'm not religious, I don't consult any holy book to give me answers that I can turn against other ppl, and I hate puritanical behaviour.


Anywho, i don't mind when gay ppl adopt children, but I would mind if they were given the tools to reproduce by means of science - this is of course mostly a question for the lesbian couples, maybe insemination isn't the worst thing, but the day we can take dna from one gay woman and fertilize another gay woman that would be bad... real bad for the human race. Of course, there are far worse ppl we could make pregnant by means of science, like natural borned handicapped ppl, ppl with down syndrome etc etc.
Once saw a woman on tv who was drooling, couldn't speak only make stupid noices, and she couldn't move her wheelchair around herself - her husband had to help her around 24/7. Anyway, she had given birth to two children (they were luckely born healthy, though they looked a bit retarded) - fucking disguting. I remember my parents thought her husband was a real cool guy because he "obviously" only cared about her inner being - how romantic! - but in my opinion he was a fucking desgusting loser... yuak!! I almost vomited when I saw that couple on tv. To allow such ppl to become pregnant and raise children.. that's immoral.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:41 pm 
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
I'm really glad I decided to go the Honors/AP route. I'm also really glad I'm in a district where the education system doesn't totally blow ass. I generally enjoy being educated. :dio:

And I've never personally witnessed any gay harassment at my school, but I've heard some rough language from some of the knuckle-dragging redneck/jock crowd. Like, "He's a fag?" "Yeah." "Like, an actual faggot?" "Yeah bro" "Shit, man, I wanna kick his ass."


I was on the College Prep track in High School (not to boast, but I went to an elite high school), but I was in the Honors program in college. Interestingly, even though some people jealously stereotype Honors kids as being "stuck-up/snobbish", I actually found the students in my Honors classes to generally be nicer than the students in my regular classes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:48 pm 
Seinfeld26 wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
I'm really glad I decided to go the Honors/AP route. I'm also really glad I'm in a district where the education system doesn't totally blow ass. I generally enjoy being educated. :dio:

And I've never personally witnessed any gay harassment at my school, but I've heard some rough language from some of the knuckle-dragging redneck/jock crowd. Like, "He's a fag?" "Yeah." "Like, an actual faggot?" "Yeah bro" "Shit, man, I wanna kick his ass."


I was on the College Prep track in High School (not to boast, but I went to an elite high school), but I was in the Honors program in college. Interestingly, even though some people jealously stereotype Honors kids as being "stuck-up/snobbish", I actually found the students in my Honors classes to generally be nicer than the students in my regular classes.


It's not a strict rule but the more educated you are, the more open-minded/tolerant you become...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:52 pm 
Astaroth wrote:
Here's a question for you, Seinfeld:

If we consider homosexuality to be a violation of both human nature and the way God made us, then what about gay animals and animals in strickly gay relationships? Are those animals immoral and sinful too? And will God be angry with them because they don't behave like they were supposed to?


I often wonder the same thing about animals, actually. Which is certainly a strong suggestion that homosexuality can't be helped.

Quote:
If we forget about child molestation, rape and incest for a moment; How can sex and mastubation be immoral? What right do ppl have to accuse other ppl of being immoral when they are not harming anyone? Sure thing, BDSM and double anal fisting can hurt (especielly with barbwire around the fists), but it's their own choice.
How this can even be a question about morality in the first place is beyond me. But then again, I'm not religious, I don't consult any holy book to give me answers that I can turn against other ppl, and I hate puritanical behaviour.


Well, again, when you are religious, you're doing things not only for yourself and other people. But also for God. Lust is considered one of the seven deadly sins, which is what masturbation can fall under. It doesn't physically hurt people, but it can mess up your perception of whomever you, ahem, "do that" over. Which could cause some problems with how you relate to them. Plus, it's taking what's supposed to be a sacred and beautiful gift (sex) and turning it into a self-centered act of pleasure. I know most of the people here are not religious (and I don't mean that disrespectfully, by the way), so you might have a harder time understanding why issues like masturbation and abortion would be considered immoral. But when you factor God into these issues, and how Jesus explicitly described right and wrong, you find yourself spending a lot of time pondering where they could in fact be wrong. Both from a religious and humanistic standpoint.

Quote:
Anywho, i don't mind when gay ppl adopt children, but I would mind if they were given the tools to reproduce by means of science - this is of course mostly a question for the lesbian couples, maybe insemination isn't the worst thing, but the day we can take dna from one gay woman and fertilize another gay woman that would be bad... real bad for the human race. Of course, there are far worse ppl we could make pregnant by means of science, like natural borned handicapped ppl, ppl with down syndrome etc etc.
Once saw a woman on tv who was drooling, couldn't speak only make stupid noices, and she couldn't move her wheelchair around herself - her husband had to help her around 24/7. Anyway, she had given birth to two children (they were luckely born healthy, though they looked a bit retarded) - fucking disguting. I remember my parents thought her husband was a real cool guy because he "obviously" only cared about her inner being - how romantic! - but in my opinion he was a fucking desgusting loser... yuak!! I almost vomited when I saw that couple on tv. To allow such ppl to become pregnant and raise children.. that's immoral.


Let's not forget transex. Which is IMO one of the worst things you could possibly do to your body.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Seinfeld26 wrote:
I don't really think homosexuality is immoral, as long as it is natural to the gay (ie. he's not just doing it to be "different").


What a wierd thing to say. Who on earth indulges in homosexuality "just to be different"??! And even if they did on what basis would it be immoral?

Quote:
I don't want to get into my views of masturbation, since it's such a difficult issue - I've seen probably every opinion left and right of it, and I've seen some pretty horrible arguments both for and against it.


Honestly I didn't realise there was more than one opinion on masturbation outside of the wacky ones held by the oppressively religious. Can you give us an example of an argument against it that isn't god-related?


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:58 pm 
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rio wrote:
Honestly I didn't realise there was more than one opinion on masturbation outside of the wacky ones held by the oppressively religious. Can you give us an example of an argument against it that isn't god-related?


Makes you go blind/infertile/curly-haired.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:10 pm 
Zad wrote:
rio wrote:
Honestly I didn't realise there was more than one opinion on masturbation outside of the wacky ones held by the oppressively religious. Can you give us an example of an argument against it that isn't god-related?


Makes you go blind/infertile/curly-haired.


LOL. Hence those "horrible" arguments against it that I was talking about.

And while we're at it, let's not forget "hairy palms."


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:14 pm 
Masturbation is good for the prostate... That's the only scientific proof for/against it...
On another level, masturbation feels good when done right... :P


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:20 pm 
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*looks at her baby pictures with natural ringlets* :unsure:

Unfortunately, Seinfeld26 is right when it comes to the state of the school systems here. Even in good schools in all-American suburbs, there's a lot of abuse toward the kids at the bottom of the pecking order. However, those kids end up where they are for a variety of reasons, and to not let gay couples adopt because of it is like saying that straight fat couples can't breed because of the abuse their kids are going to suffer.

The only thing I'd say about any questions of masturbation/sex practices is that no one has the right to force their own views on anyone else. If a religious Christian thinks it's wrong to masturbate, he doesn't have to, but he also doesn't have the right to try and force other people to stop if it isn't against their own ethical/moral views. As long as it's between consenting adults, really, there's no moral question except where it applies to oneself.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Zad wrote:
rio wrote:
Honestly I didn't realise there was more than one opinion on masturbation outside of the wacky ones held by the oppressively religious. Can you give us an example of an argument against it that isn't god-related?


Makes you go blind/infertile/curly-haired.


Zad when your mum tells you these things it's not because she believes them... it's just that she wants to stop her little boy being corrupted by impure thoughts...


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:27 pm 
FYI Zad has bad eyesight, very few spermatozoids and curly hair... The boy knows what he's talking about! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:28 pm 
Seinfeld26 wrote:
Well, again, when you are religious, you're doing things not only for yourself and other people 1*. But also for God. Lust is considered one of the seven deadly sins 2*, which is what masturbation can fall under. It doesn't physically hurt people, but it can mess up your perception of whomever you, ahem, "do that" over 3*. Which could cause some problems with how you relate to them. Plus, it's taking what's supposed to be a sacred and beautiful gift (sex) and turning it into a self-centered act of pleasure. 4* I know most of the people here are not religious (and I don't mean that disrespectfully, by the way), so you might have a harder time understanding why issues like masturbation and abortion would be considered immoral. But when you factor God into these issues, and how Jesus explicitly described right and wrong 5*, you find yourself spending a lot of time pondering where they could in fact be wrong. Both from a religious and humanistic standpoint.


1: Perhaps, but that doesn't give one the right to interfere in other ppl's privacy, does it, or condem them?

2: Yes, but only in Catholism. Being religious is not enough.

3: Uhm... what? Do you absolutely need to mastubate and cum on other ppl?! And so what if it cause trouble in a relationship, that is for them to solve - some like it, some don't. Some couple likes to pee on each other during sex - I think that can cause more trouble, at least if you don't ask first - but even so... none my bussiness.

4: Yes, supposed - that's not the same as it has to be or is immoral. Besides, sex with another individual can also be self-centered act of pleasure.

5: Well, in the end Jesus was human being and as such he had his own opinion - a very puritanical opinion that is. But he was not perfect, and if you read the bible carefully he too was sinful.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:40 pm 
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'SLAYERRRRR!'


I HAVE shouted this at people and I dislike gay culture, but same sex 'marriage' seems fine to me. It'll bring some fucking ethics to a horribly promiscous, perverted and maligned culture. Gay people need this to get some ethics going on.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Metalhead_Bastard wrote:
Quote:
'SLAYERRRRR!'


I HAVE shouted this at people and I dislike gay culture, but same sex 'marriage' seems fine to me. It'll bring some fucking ethics to a horribly promiscous, perverted and maligned culture. Gay people need this to get some ethics going on.


eh?

What do you know about gay culture? You wouldn't be relying on stupid stereotypes would you...


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:57 pm 
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rio wrote:
Metalhead_Bastard wrote:
Quote:
'SLAYERRRRR!'


I HAVE shouted this at people and I dislike gay culture, but same sex 'marriage' seems fine to me. It'll bring some fucking ethics to a horribly promiscous, perverted and maligned culture. Gay people need this to get some ethics going on.


eh?

What do you know about gay culture? You wouldn't be relying on stupid stereotypes would you...


I'm relying on the gay people I know (aboit 10) and stuff I've read and seen.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:10 pm 
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And all ten of them are horribly promiscuous, perverted and malign?


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