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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:59 pm 
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rio wrote:
Goat wrote:
Dictators = shit.


It's like Slipknot meets Propagandhi :D


:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:39 pm 
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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
rio wrote:
I propose starting a philosophy thread in which we can muse over the relationship between a changing material environment and its effect on ideological framings (or vice versa if you are a Hegelian) in a more civilised and open minded tone.


I forsee much name dropping and wiki-quoting.
Pfff nah.

Goat wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
rio wrote:
"Liberal" is what neoliberals think they are until they start wanting to make a profit.
New favorite definition ever and yeah Zad look into the great liberal marketeer Augusto Pinochet who Milton Friedman used to give hand jobs to and you'll know what I mean by neoliberalism being in bed with totalitarian violence.


Yeah, Pinochet is to liberals what Stalin is to Communists. Dictators = shit.
It's funny because what Pinochet did openly, Western governments do behind close doors. Does that really make his actions the perversion of liberalism comparable to Stalin's perversion of Marx which really had nothing to do with Marxism? He really was just an opportunist dictator.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:44 pm 
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If you're interested, I wrote this up for a sociology course last quarter. It was just a discussion board post so I had to address so many quotes and what not but it was basically about whether neoliberalism is more in line with Amer. Republican party conservatism or liberalism.
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It is often emphasized when neoliberalism is discussed just how much it shares with the conservative, republican agenda. In many ways, this comparison is an attempt to preserve the pristine façade of the roots of liberalism as if neoliberalism was some bastardization. Liberalism wants to be seen as a possible route for social change even while neoliberalism squelches true democracy across the globe. In actuality, neoliberal tendencies are present in classic liberal writers; there is no gap in which Republican agendas polluted liberalism to create neoliberalism. Neoliberalism should be seen as simply bringing to fruition the logical possibilities within John Locke and Thomas Paine. To explain away neoliberalism as some perversion of liberalism and conservatism actually ignores what conservatism seeks and ultimately mystifies any chance of usurping bourgeois ideology, whether it be conservative or liberal.
One thing that needs to be initially addressed is what exactly is meant by the term neoliberalism. As much as my task is to define neoliberalism through classic liberal texts, it would do well to initially point out what I am referring to. What I mean by neoliberalism is the application of fundamentally liberal ideas and practices within global economic and foreign policy which has resulted in and continues to perpetuate radical inequality, exploitation and tyranny. What I intend to show here is how these contemporary policies arise out of no new shift in thinking but were ultimately inherent in our modern society’s liberal ideology.
As early as Locke, society was a venue for the procurement of life and liberty and most importantly to neoliberals, wealth, “the commonwealth seems to me to be a society of men constituted only for the procuring, preserving and advancing their own civil interests” (Locke 72). Some of these civil interests are “money, land, houses, furniture,” etc., material goods essentially. In Locke’s day and age, this was a response to feudalism and the control of the king. Property wasn’t individualized under feudalism and what one earned wasn’t necessary protected from the grasp of the king if he chose to take it. What this has developed into, in contemporary mindsets, is that society and the people within are there to facilitate the production of wealth as laborers and consumers to be exploited and marketed to.
As an Enlightenment thinker, Locke saw in the individual a source of progress and reason when left unrestrained. His conception of the state of nature contests to that, “all men are naturally in a state of perfect freedom to order their actions and dispose of their possessions and persons, as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature” (Locke 76). To Locke, this individualism opened the gate for a commonwealth of intellectually developed individuals to meet and dictate how their lives are to be run without a despot ruling over their every move. One could finally tend as much as one wanted to one’s personal whims as long as it didn’t intrude on others. Within neoliberalism, this has become a plea for free trade and unregulated markets; every act should be unrestrained or uncontested insofar as a rational individual is committing it. People must be free to become wealthy at the deprivation of others as much as one shouldn’t be forced to participate in some institution, like the military, against their will. That is, people aren’t conscripted until capitalism is challenged or markets are in danger of being lost.
Within Paine’s writing is the foundation for America insofar as he participated in the revolution’s buildup and he early on outlined many parts of the democracy which would be adopted. Paine had a positive outlook towards society while having a negative one towards the government, “government even in its best state is but a necessary evil” (Paine 88). Paine was writing in retaliation to the tyranny of George III and his overbearing taxes and despotic rule over the thirteen colonies. This has been maintained as resentment towards government intervention on individual’s lives but has devolved into interference in the business sector. A desire for government uninvolved in personal affairs has become the desire for no tariffs, welfare, regulation or unions. For neoliberals, government should make itself smaller in order to let corporations grow. Paine declared that “the design and end of government” was simply “freedom and security” (Paine 89). Paine simply wanted the government to protect and facilitate the growth of individuals towards the betterment of society and that hasn’t changed much. Contemporary neoliberals see the government as serving no more need than to wage war, create markets and protect their overseas business ventures. Security no longer applies to individuals but to revenues, as protestors against the WTO get mace in the face and the war in Iraq was waged solely for private companies to benefit off of reconstruction contracts towards rebuilding cities we bombed ourselves.
Now that we’ve traced neoliberalism’s roots back to classic liberalism, is it drawing from conservatism in any ways to form a new agenda for Republicans or is it truly separate from the Right’s way of thinking? Edmund Burke was the original conservative to lash out against the principles of liberalism, in his case, the French Revolution. In direct opposition to classical or neoliberalism, Burke thought “society requires not only that the passions of individuals should be subjected…the inclinations of men should frequently be thwarted, their will controlled, and their passions brought into subjection” (Burke 136). No appeal for the limitless progression of individuals or free self-reign in Burke’s view. Burke saw people as inherently ruthless in need of repression much in the same way Hobbes did. If Burke was to analyze contemporary neoliberalism, he would see it as the rapacious monstrosity it is in need of rules and structure. Because to Burke, “the state ought not to be considered as nothing better than a partnership agreement…to be taken up for a little temporary interest, and to be dissolved by the fancy of the parties” (Burke 139). This is much of the role that modern neoliberal policies want the state to play insofar as workers should be subjugated while corporations can run amok across the globe. In Burke’s opinion, manipulation of the state to serve one’s interests is not only wrong but much of what liberals wanted to do. The idea of a contract one agrees to only when it fits one’s own interests was morally repugnant to Burke. To Burke, if the state was to have authority, it was to have it in all aspects of life, an idea which liberalism in any form would not consent to.
What we now have is what exactly neoliberalism is; freedom to accumulate wealth, no governmental regulations on commerce, an insistence on free trade and the protection and military domination of new markets. We also now see that conservatism shares little with neoliberalism and what this means is that both sides of the aisle in contemporary Western society will never truly challenge capitalism. It no longer serves any purpose to distinguish between two veins of liberalism any longer, what is necessary is to emphasize the similarities throughout history to demonstrate the need for an alternative to this bourgeois ideology. What Locke, Paine and Burke wrote towards the end of the eighteenth century has grave consequences for contemporary social change insofar as every aspect of mainstream thinking takes capitalism for granted and refuses to challenge it. Every anti-capitalist movement must now recognize this fact and look towards the creation of alternative forms of life, free from alienation and exploitation. Liberal feminists, labor movements or socialist democratic parties can’t rely on the political process insofar as it is always a struggle between classic liberalism and its propensity towards neoliberalism or conservatism. Radicalizing this process for real change seems a task more comparable to Sisyphus’ than a pragmatic political goal.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Nice work, trapt, quite well-written and thought provoking. The one thing I don't like is the line in the first paragraph beginning "what I mean by neoliberalism", because it kind of seems to confirm all the boo-hooing about neoliberal being not much more than a perjorative. It is often a perjorative and I don't have a problem with it being used as such, you just seem to put it a bit too bluntly there.

But yeah, apart from that sentence, interesting stuff and a good argument.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:09 pm 
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rio wrote:
Nice work, trapt, quite well-written and thought provoking. The one thing I don't like is the line in the first paragraph beginning "what I mean by neoliberalism", because it kind of seems to confirm all the boo-hooing about neoliberal being not much more than a perjorative. It is often a perjorative and I don't have a problem with it being used as such, you just seem to put it a bit too bluntly there.

But yeah, apart from that sentence, interesting stuff and a good argument.
we hadn't actually talked much about neoliberalism in the class so i had to clarify and saying 'what i mean' let me skate out without finding a source. I just think Adam Smith, Paine, Jefferson, Locke, all those classic liberals are the logical foundations of IMF and World Bank policies founded on Friedmanism. Sadly, those don't equal liberty and freedom like Zad might hope.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:14 pm 
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I saved all this up for when I could be bothered typing it. I'd argue with nearly all of Trapt's essay there, but especially this:

Trapt wrote:
What we now have is what exactly neoliberalism is; freedom to accumulate wealth, no governmental regulations on commerce, an insistence on free trade and the protection and military domination of new markets.


This is, of course, nonsense. A lot of big corporations like Exxon, Time Warner, News Corp, Boeing etc only survive due to government intervention - Murray Rothbard considered them part of the state. Corporatocracy =! liberalism. Look at the banking industry - the barriers to entry are ridiculously high, and protect the bigger banks who can afford a strong hand. The problem re the recession wasn't not enough regulation, it was bad regulation, and setting interest rates without considering the effects down the line, etc. In these areas, the state is an active harmful influence, and there's nothing like a free market. And Adam Smith wasn't a non-interventionist, by the by.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Goat wrote:
I saved all this up for when I could be bothered typing it. I'd argue with nearly all of Trapt's essay there, but especially this:

Trapt wrote:
What we now have is what exactly neoliberalism is; freedom to accumulate wealth, no governmental regulations on commerce, an insistence on free trade and the protection and military domination of new markets.


This is, of course, nonsense. A lot of big corporations like Exxon, Time Warner, News Corp, Boeing etc only survive due to government intervention - Murray Rothbard considered them part of the state. Corporatocracy =! liberalism. Look at the banking industry - the barriers to entry are ridiculously high, and protect the bigger banks who can afford a strong hand. The problem re the recession wasn't not enough regulation, it was bad regulation, and setting interest rates without considering the effects down the line, etc. In these areas, the state is an active harmful influence, and there's nothing like a free market.

The essay was in opposition to neoliberalism. Actually, I'm not really seeing how your example of gov't being in bed with business contradicts what I said. Neoliberalism relies on gov't intervention to protect markets, to force an agenda on populaces without any concern to their well-being. Neoliberalism isn't an all-encompassing schema which applies to all aspects of our contemporary world. It hasn't permeated the system entirely. Neoliberalism has to be analyzed as it emerges. Security/paramilitary and intelligence firms after 9/11, dictatorships in South America opening the gates to foreign exploitation, structural adjustment policies which make water unaffordable for entire populaces (water deregulation and privatization which might worry you: The lack of regulation [of privatized water companies] has led to “bacterially unacceptable water” being provided to 5.2 million French citizens, and “the British Medical Association condemned water privatization of its health effects” as “dysentery increased sixfold” in England). All of these are examples of neoliberalism being put into place.

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And Adam Smith wasn't a non-interventionist, by the by.
I know. I've read my fair share of 'da wealth' as they call it on the streets. I always position Smith, Locke, Paine etc. as the roots to an ideology which emphasized and pushed certain aspects to their radical conclusion. It's funny because liberals who avoid the neoliberal tag have historically pointed out to me how an entirely free market has never existed; gov't has always had its hands in the market. I agree with that. Neoliberalism is a way of using the gov't to benefit themselves, ie, reconstruction companies in Iraq using the US gov't as an ATM without actually providing any services to the Iraqi people.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Some David Harvey on neoliberalism from Wiki:
(Harvey 2005) claims that neoliberalism is a global capitalist class power restoration project. Neoliberalism, he argues, is a theory of political-economic practices that dedicates the state to championing private property rights, free markets, and free trade, while deregulating business and privatizing inefficient government assets. Ideologically, he suggests that neoliberals promote entrepreneurialism as the normative source of human happiness. Harvey also considers neoliberalization a form of capitalist "creative destruction", a Schumpeterian concept.[111]

Harvey (2000)[112] claims that neoliberalism has become hegemonic worldwide, sometimes by coercion. Neoliberalism has had the support of large debt restructuring organizations such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), which were encouraged to promote neoliberalism in order to promote higher living standards in developing countries. Opponents of neoliberalism argue that neoliberalism is the implementation of global capitalism through government/military interventionism to protect the interests of multinational corporations.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Well, sure. But all you're really doing is taking the current, corporate-dominated system of capitalism, and constructing an argument as to why it is "neoliberalism", a term that apparently means whatever people want it to mean, in this case something that is pretty much the opposite of liberalism! You can't create a liberal economy through state intervention - crony capitalism is not liberalism.

Where do you commies stand on mutualism? That seems to be something that everyone can get behind in some form or another.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Goat wrote:
a term that apparently means whatever people want it to mean, in this case something that is pretty much the opposite of liberalism!
The essay I wrote was supposed to show how neoliberalism has been derived from the classic liberal theorists. A whole book could be written about this, by Friedman and Hayek themselves mind you not just Leftists, I just simply chose two authors we had sampled in class.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Goat wrote:

Where do you commies stand on mutualism? That seems to be something that everyone can get behind in some form or another.


If you are interested in the specific marxian critique of that idea (you mean as expressed by Proudhon? All that bank of labour exchange stuff?) then I think it goes something like the following.

Mutualism rests on the idea of being able to definitely quantify in money terms the amount of money someone has done, which can't be done so long as you maintain a decentralised/individual system of production. Everybody has differing levels of productivity and it takes one person more effort and time to produce something than it would another. But I guess under Proudhon's system you have to give the one that took longer to do it more money. So it's a reactionary system because it values effort, when techonology should provide us with a means of reducing effort.

Marx claims that the only way of measuring the value of work in a capitalist system is according to the average amount of labour time required to produce something. This is a necessary part of a competitive system, where people survive or fail according to whether they can produce above or below that average. Proudhon wants to retain competition in the sphere of production but abolish the averaging out process that actually enables the competitive process to function.

Erk, I have to go make tea now, and that's probably not a very good exaplanation...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Aristotle I think advocated this too but I'm not even sure how it could be still put in place insofar as it was so closely related to a society where everyone was a tradesmen and brought something to the market. A service or industrialized economy would have to appeal to Marx's socially necessary labor time or maybe not.

It's funny to think that so much time has been spent on annihilating the labor theory of value to prove Marx wrong only to have it revived by contemporary libertarians it seems.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:10 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC7ANGMy ... r_embedded

ideas woo


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:56 am 
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Those RSA drawing things are very cool. There was a really nice one of a David Harvey lecture as well I watched recently. Will watch this later when I got some time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Oh hells no.

Quote:
Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing

NEW YORK | Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:08pm EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Muslim center planned near the site of the World Trade Center attack could qualify for tax-free financing, a spokesman for City Comptroller John Liu said on Friday, and Liu is willing to consider approving the public subsidy.

The Democratic comptroller's spokesman, Scott Sieber, said Liu supported the project. The center has sparked an intense debate over U.S. religious freedoms and the sanctity of the Trade Center site, where nearly 3,000 perished in the September 11, 2001 attack.

"If it turns out to be financially feasible and if they can demonstrate an ability to pay off the bonds and comply with the laws concerning tax-exempt financing, we'd certainly consider it," Sieber told Reuters.

Spokesmen for Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Governor David Paterson and the Islamic center and were not immediately available.

The proposed center, two blocks from the Trade Center site in lower Manhattan, has caused a split between people who lost relatives and friends in the attack, as well as conservative politicians, and those who support the project. Among those who support it are the mayor, civic and religious groups, and some families of victims.

The mosque's backers hope to raise a total of $70 million in tax-exempt debt to build the center, according to the New York Times. Tax laws allow such funding for religiously affiliated non-profits if they can prove the facility will benefit the general public and their religious activities are funded separately.

The bonds could be issued through a local development corporation created for this purpose, experts said.

The Islamic center would have to repay the bonds, which likely would be less expensive than taxable debt.

New York City's Industrial Development Authority could not issue debt for the center because the state civic facilities law, which governed this type of financing for non-profits, was allowed to expire about two years ago.
[/quote]

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I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Here we go. Link post time!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ero-mosque

Sums it up pretty well. Here's a bald man for bonus points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WQ3co4NDqA

There's a 14 minute Keith Olberman rant too, but I didn't watch it all because he's annoying.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:34 pm 
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I know it's two blocks away. It doesn't matter. I voted in favour of banning minarets last year, and I'd vote in favour of any similar ban again.

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I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:36 pm 
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I'll vote to ban you in a minute if you don't reduce the size of that avatar.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Goat wrote:
I'll vote to ban you in a minute if you don't reduce the size of that avatar.


I'm trying >.<'''''

EDIT: There we go.

EDIT2: Anyway, I posted that article because it pisses me off even more that any religious centre, especially a Muslim one, should receive any sort of financial aid from taxes.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:23 pm 
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If churches can get the funding, all the time mind you, give it to the Muslims. Frig emphasizing this mosque's funding as a bad thing is exactly what the idiots at FOX do. Why does the logical conclusion of Hitchen's atheism have to be supporting conservative kneejerk bullshit?


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