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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm 
mentalmark wrote:
Just a thought guys, but there seems to be too many additional variables added into the equations that you keep refering to. In Misha's original equation, logic, mankind, nature and superpowers are used, but in Jaden's approach, God, Humans and the ability to do two things at once (a & b) were added. Later, mass and force were referred to as well as a mention of language. Your equations will always evolve, reaching a large, complex and incomplete theory always to be disproved by someone (hello! :P ).

To add a different view and kinda vindicate what I mentioned in an earlier post that as a race we cannot agree on the perfect answer, as there is always too much room to add disclaiming variables for us to agree in harmony, I'll add my thoughts in basic maths. In a simple sense, my therory is nothing and life, therefore in a mathematical sense I'll use nothing = 0 and life = 1.

1 could never be divided, multiplied or equal 0, causing (whichever way you look at it) an impossible equation to calculate and this defies logic. I'll add 'variables' to try and please all like the Chaos theory, a 'big bang' chemical reaction, and lets asumme that's 0 too as it is similar to evolving from nothing. Science = 0

I'll even use an all powerful entity that created all - 'God' and give that a number of infinity as it defies 'logic' in the sense that it is opposite to science as it can never be proved by that means. Infinity cannot be multiplied by 1 either, as it is illogical to multiply it by a simple number, meaning infinity must have an end if it can be equated. God = ∞

You're left with up to three impossible to prove theories so why equate something that couldn't be logically proved or create an equation that serves no purpose? I guess that's the point. The general debate here is noone is right. But in the same vein, everyone is right in the same sense for having their own theories and beliefs. Best to make peace and agree to disagree I think.

Conclusion is that logic can always be defied by nature because logic is bound by rules, yet nature is an ever evolving entity that always defies logic, in this world and for in the rest of the universe.

Just realised the very Scientology approach I used, :lol:


The Big Bang Theory does not propose that something came from nothing. all the matter in the universe was condenced. The process is continual. As for the universe's existance, there's no reason why it could not have existed forever (it's more logical than stating God has existed forever because of the simple fact that we know the universe actually exists).

My point is, you really have no reason to ascribe 0 to science (since it's not something from nothing). Honestly, your proposal is way too abstract to be using numbers anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:55 pm 
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Metal Lord

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Watch this:

http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

God is the dot that defines the tenth dimension.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:42 am 
God is good, God is great,
I think that he might be gay.

Not saying God is gay,
Not saying that at all.
But if Jesus Christ was God
and God created all.
Then Jesus Christ created
the homosexual.

There might be a little fag in us all.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:44 am 
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Einherjar
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All of these arguments are based on the assumption that god is the anthropomorphic celestial patriarch invented by people in their religious texts. Therefore all of our human logic applies our social, cognitive, moral and in a sense political structures to god. If god were to exist (and I'm not saying that he does) then he would likely be an "it" rather than a "he". In this sense god is nothing more than a source or an event; whose existence sets the framework for all subsequent natural laws.

Whether this god is sentient or not, it is likely that it is apathetic to our existence: seeing us as either an unusual phenomenon or as one of many planetary experiments. This god is beyond our logic because we look at it in 'humanist' logic. But what about if we based our logic on something that is uncorruptable by human subjectivity; such as physics. If we lok at the possibility of god as a mathamatical equation rather than as a superhuman interventionist spook, then we might get somewhere.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Metal Lord
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Jaden wrote:
The Big Bang Theory does not propose that something came from nothing. all the matter in the universe was condenced. The process is continual. As for the universe's existance, there's no reason why it could not have existed forever (it's more logical than stating God has existed forever because of the simple fact that we know the universe actually exists).

My point is, you really have no reason to ascribe 0 to science (since it's not something from nothing). Honestly, your proposal is way too abstract to be using numbers anyway.


Totally agree, and I kinda purposely did the 'equation thing' to try and show that I see both sides to the arguement. I think the most important thing that I'm trying to say is that we try to rationalise things by faith or by logic when in reality noone knows the truth for sure. I've mentioned that I do not follow a religion and I personally believe that a 'God' figure was created to keep humans into line.

Think about it. 2,000 years ago the Roman empire was falling and what better way to prevent a revolt from the natives but to have an all scorning entity? There was talk of the conjerings from some middle-eastern magician and why not combine it with new age thinking and trend?

Is it a coincidence that before Catholocism that the Romans had nicked the majority of their Gods from Greek Myth, and around the time of 'Jesus' they had invaded Pagan britain who celebrate Winter Solstice on 21st Dec (Xmas), Imbloc on 2nd Feb (Candlemas) and Vernal Equinox on 21 March (Easter (which derives from Pagan godess Eostra)).

But at the same time, Science has been searching for a missing link, proof that the universe was 'condensed', a damn monkey with wings, life on Mars, but many questions will always be imposiible to answer and theory will have to fill the blanks to compensate until space travel or a 'time machine' is viable/possible/concidered as unachievable.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:24 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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Ok, now try disproving Odin.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:16 am 
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Metal Servant
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Quote:
what about if we based our logic on something that is uncorruptable by human subjectivity; such as physics.


Nothing that men sees, hears, feels, etc is objective. Why should mathematics solve it? The numbers and calculations are inventions of human beings, not something external that we discovered.
that it does represent something in the world, i agree. But it is not "objective".

I bet you even think that human nature can be summarized into numbers


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:54 am 
kakaman wrote:
Quote:
what about if we based our logic on something that is uncorruptable by human subjectivity; such as physics.


Nothing that men sees, hears, feels, etc is objective. Why should mathematics solve it? The numbers and calculations are inventions of human beings, not something external that we discovered.
that it does represent something in the world, i agree. But it is not "objective".

I bet you even think that human nature can be summarized into numbers


Your ideas are too abstract.

1+1=2.

This cannot be disproved. Misha, using the idea of God moving through space without being propelled, tried to prove that he could break this rule. He is not though.

God can MAKE 1+1=3, but he does not change the fact that 1+1=2. To clarify, the actual equation would be 1+1+(?)=3. The (?) would essentially have the power of one. If God is intervening, then he is adding an additional factor with an external force, but he is not changing the fact that 1+1=2.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:13 am 
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I can't wait to see what topic Jaden posts next semester when he takes "Philosophy 201"....
"Duuuuude, I just discovered this great stuff called Existentialism! Life has no meaning!"
You seem to be focussing too much on the "Philosophy of Logic" aspect of your argument, and are losing sight of what you're actually debating. The concept of God is immense, and you're trying to tie it to human logic. One could take your "Could God make a rock..." argument, and simply say that it's a debate over whether God is bound by logic or not.


On a vaguely related note... anyone ever read The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner by James Hogg? It pretty closely follows the first part of Jaden's post, dealing with divine predetermination. The story follows an ultra-pious Catholic who gets tricked by the Devil into thinking that since God has a plan for everyone, and already knows what a person will do, people are free to do whatever they like, as it MUST be part of God's plan, since you can't defy God's plan. It's a bit slow in parts, but overall a really good book.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:15 am 
Shuten Doji wrote:
I can't wait to see what topic Jaden posts next semester when he takes "Philosophy 201"....
"Duuuuude, I just discovered this great stuff called Existentialism! Life has no meaning!"
You seem to be focussing too much on the "Philosophy of Logic" aspect of your argument, and are losing sight of what you're actually debating. The concept of God is immense, and you're trying to tie it to human logic. One could take your "Could God make a rock..." argument, and simply say that it's a debate over whether God is bound by logic or not.


I didn't take this argument from a class. I wanted to stir debate, and I'm entering third year soon, so I'm a bit beyond 201... (which isn't a course to my knowledge).

Also, I'm not a fan of existentialism, and am by no means a "class tool" as you propose. I rarely agree with most propositions, and then only to varying degrees.

Why are you trying to make personal attacks? And logic is the very essence of philosophy, and cannot be detached from anything (be it ethical, metaphysical, or epistomological philosophy).

Quote:
One could take your "Could God make a rock..." argument, and simply say that it's a debate over whether God is bound by logic or not.


They could. In fact, that's EXACTLY what I said.

Quote:
Nothing can be beyond logic. Even people who refute this argument make that very point. For example, people often use the argument "if God can do anything, how could he make a rock so heavy he couldn't life it?" He couldn't, assuming he existed, because it's not logically possible. Just saying "God is beyond logic" isn't a good enough argument.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:06 am 
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Jaden wrote:
I didn't take this argument from a class. I wanted to stir debate


And you did well, squire! It's weird when you do find someone who wants to discuss things like this as it's not your normal pub topic, nor can I debate this with family or girlfriend as they're all Christian (but at least they don't preach), so I've given up the angst of trying to preach to them or anyone religious a different view. I'm certainly closer to your view overall, but my interest concerns the id of a being, hence a more 'abstract' approach to my hypothesis on things.

By the way, another thought about God and to kinda quote the movie 'The Crow'. We subconciously think God is a huge existance that surrounds us and we are minuscule in comparison. The giver of life to each individual being on this planet is the entity's parents. We were once a tiny sperm/egg combo. If there is a God, then it's your parents, as they gave you life and guided you through your growth. You will be God to your offspring as the cycle must continue for life to be everlasting and if your parents die before you, then death will release you from the grief you feel for them and the pain of dying.

There's endless angles for this discussion and none of them right or wrong! Maths, Science or Philosophy can aid understanding, but best to rip up the text books and arrive at your own understanding, which I think Jaden has accomplished well here.

Quote:
Ok, now try disproving Odin


How can I when he is the Lord Almighty? :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:12 am 
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Jaden wrote:
kakaman wrote:
Quote:
what about if we based our logic on something that is uncorruptable by human subjectivity; such as physics.


Nothing that men sees, hears, feels, etc is objective. Why should mathematics solve it? The numbers and calculations are inventions of human beings, not something external that we discovered.
that it does represent something in the world, i agree. But it is not "objective".

I bet you even think that human nature can be summarized into numbers


Your ideas are too abstract.

1+1=2.

This cannot be disproved. Misha, using the idea of God moving through space without being propelled, tried to prove that he could break this rule. He is not though.

God can MAKE 1+1=3, but he does not change the fact that 1+1=2. To clarify, the actual equation would be 1+1+(?)=3. The (?) would essentially have the power of one. If God is intervening, then he is adding an additional factor with an external force, but he is not changing the fact that 1+1=2.

Nonono wait. I didn't say he can. I said if he could, then he would break the rule, which is impossible, so he can't.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:17 pm 
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Speaking of Odin, it was interesting to see Varg trying to justify his belief in him in The Vargsmal by saying that he doesn't expect him to fly in and save him, unlike los christianos.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:58 pm 
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Yeah religions begin to make way more snese when you don't see god as mystical force meddling with your affairs and is just sort of there.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:20 am 
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What about the metal gods?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:39 pm 
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I sure as hell can lift some big ass rocks, it that's the criteria.

Should I apply for godness? Maybe we should vote it off. A democratic (and metalhead) god eh? That would rule if you ask me. But I don't wanna force anyone. I'm like a friend to you mortals.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:35 pm 
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So should we have a vote on which god (past and present) is most metal?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:44 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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It would be Odin or Thor, absolutely.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:08 pm 
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EDIT - Kali, Hinduism:
Image

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:53 pm 
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I'm your one true god. You will see. the god of shit


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