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Astaroth · **Posted:** Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:19 pm

may be a stupid question, but what exactly is the "ad hominem argument"?

Anonymous · **Posted:** Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:29 pm

Brahm_K wrote:

I disagree with you on several points. Firstly, although it is different in this case because the thread is about the black metal scene and how its changed and therefore going in there to say that you don't like black metal is irrelevant, a general thread about a band or a genre is different. Obviously, just saying "Band X sucks" and then leaving isn't useful, but people coming into threads and offering constructive criticism on bands, or at least saying why they don't like them, is indeed part of the discussion process- otherwise we all just agree that the band rules and it can get kind of boring. I'd say the problem is both people just saying "band x sucks" instead of going into why they think they suck and also in people being overly defensive about criticism of things they like; if someone comes into a thread and says that "band x sucks," people can just ignore it instead of it developing into a flamewar; or, if someone offers criticism and argues a point, a defender of the band can try to rebut those points.

Well, I agree with this, so you aren't disagreeing with me! I've been arguing here for a long time that just dropping into a thread to say a band sucks is pointless. But most people do just that, they don't articulate themselves at all.

Quote:

And I also disagree that music discussions are nothing more than ad hominem arguments. Because music is very subjective, it often seems that way, but it is very easy to have an argument with someone over say, whether band x is better than band y, without resorting to "well your opinion is stupid or irrelevant" or "you suck, so your opinion does too!"

Again, you're actually agreeing with something I've been saying for ages here. But, no matter what anyone says, we're never likely to change the other's opinion; thus my "ad hominen" comment. No matter what we say, at the end of the day it's going to be pretty much the same thing we'd say if the conversation came up six months from now.

EDIT: Disregard. I was thinking ad nauseum.

Quote:

Debates don't obviously need to be as polite as this. But it certainly is possible to have musical discussion without resorting to name calling. Otherwise music literature class discussions would just be people calling each other idiots.

Again, I agree, and have been saying this very thing for a year now!

Quote:

Edit: Kuurus also has a point. There haven't been many major releases at all so far- wait till the new Kamelot comes out, new Shadows Fall (this tuesday, I believe), new W.A.S.P., etc.. all come out.

I disagree completely. There have been PLENTY of major releases so far this year. But aside from that, doesn't anyone have an appetite for new music anymore? There's so much music out there, yet most threads discussing lesser known bands get little attention. Why? What motivates people to listen to new bands? Must they see a little bit of a trend starting before they give it a shot?

Misha · **Posted:** Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:31 pm

The Ghost of Eyesore wrote:

Brahm_K wrote:

I think that a large part of the problem is that when we do have musical discussions, they quickly turn into ad hominem arguments that end up as pissing contests, and its impossible to have a good debate in an enviornment like that. I'm not blaming anyone in particular for this (most of us seem to contribute in one way or another). However, the black metal thread going on right now does show that we can have good discussions here still (unfortunately, I can't join in because I know nothing about black metal).

Which is exactly why I'm not posting in that thread. One of the biggest problems, though, is that far too many people do the opposite, they inject their "opinions" into topics they know nothing about. Music discussion is hardly ever going to be anything but "ad hominem arguments," that's what they are, that's what they'll always be. The problem is keeping it civil, that is the hard part, and that isn't helped when someone comes along and drops some worthless shitbomb on a subject they know nothing about. Then if you go against that person, his little e-buddies jump in to stand up for him.

We all know what would happen if I went into the black metal thread and said "black metal sucks." Yet those kinds of comments are posted constantly across this forum and no one says a word because it's always stuff like "nu-metal sucks" or "In Flames sucks" or whatever. But honestly, what's the basic difference? There isn't a difference. The effect is the same.

Yeah, I basically agree that it needs to stop, but when you say black metal sucks, I just know you haven't heard all black metal. When I say In Flames suck, I say it because I've heard all In Flames works. When you say "Burzum sucks" which you have said occasionally, then you get about as much shit as when I say some nu-metal band sucks. What do you suggest, to stop give shorter opinions on something or to stop reacting to them? I think the first will only result in long opinions on how something sucks, no? I think the problem with this forum is that most of us are quite saturated in metal and have heard almost every style that is being played. "I've found this new band x, they sound like Tankard but with less punk". "Yes, they do, awesome!". "Nice". Awesome!". "Nice". End of thread. Everybody knows what it's like, no further discussion. I think it's like that with a lot of threads, most of us just know too much. I think the black metal is dead thread was a good one btw.

Misha · **Posted:** Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:37 pm

The Ghost of Eyesore wrote:

Brahm_K wrote:

Edit: Kuurus also has a point. There haven't been many major releases at all so far- wait till the new Kamelot comes out, new Shadows Fall (this tuesday, I believe), new W.A.S.P., etc.. all come out.

I disagree completely. There have been PLENTY of major releases so far this year. But aside from that, doesn't anyone have an appetite for new music anymore? There's so much music out there, yet most threads discussing lesser known bands get little attention. Why? What motivates people to listen to new bands? Must they see a little bit of a trend starting before they give it a shot?

Yes, I think they must. I remember when Daniel and I and a few others started "promoting" true black metal. They was a lot of discussion and things were getting really interesting. A lot of people and ourselves really dug into it and found heaps of bands that we shared, and we all learned a lot about the background of the genre. I tried to do the same thing with post-rock after Stefan showed me GY!BE, and although it didn't work as well as with the BM, together with a few like-minded, I think people do have an idea about the genre now. So yeah, maybe you do need to start little trends to get things to be exiting.

unknownkadath666 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:10 am

Misha wrote:

Yes, I think they must. I remember when Daniel and I and a few others started "promoting" true black metal. They was a lot of discussion and things were getting really interesting. A lot of people and ourselves really dug into it and found heaps of bands that we shared, and we all learned a lot about the background of the genre. I tried to do the same thing with post-rock after Stefan showed me GY!BE, and although it didn't work as well as with the BM, together with a few like-minded, I think people do have an idea about the genre now. So yeah, maybe you do need to start little trends to get things to be exiting.

it was that BM trend that got me coming here in the first place. Now everything has sort of chilled out.

I think that something that could invigorate the conversation on here some more would be to talk about some more "local" bands. and sort ofget the life back in the thread that way, however some people (i think noodles) posted some stuff like that a little while ago and it went the same as everything else so who knows

Anonymous · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:32 am

For as long as I've been coming to this site, I've never been a really active poster and probably never will be. But I still enjoy it and find that I'm able to sift through and find new bands from time to time that are really interesting. I agree with unknownkadath666 that the period when lots of BM was getting reviewed here was especially interesting for me, and I gained a lot from that time.

But I like many of Misha's reviews and recommendations, I like Alex's reviews, and occasionally some of the others as well. And like I said, I still find lots of music from various topics in the forums that I probably wouldn't have known about and listened to otherwise.

I wish there were more posters, and I wish some of the old posters were still active, sure, but they aren't. Maybe an overhaul of the site would help, I don't know...

But as long as I'm still finding new music here and there are some interesting discussions (like the current bm topic or that one topic we had awhile back about metal and diversity and all that), I'll still be coming back.

-Tyrion

noodles · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:11 am

I generally find at least one or two albums to check out a week from the reviews and probably double that from the topics here.

The_Voice · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

The Ghost of Eyesore wrote:

Quote:

Edit: Kuurus also has a point. There haven't been many major releases at all so far- wait till the new Kamelot comes out, new Shadows Fall (this tuesday, I believe), new W.A.S.P., etc.. all come out.

I disagree completely. There have been PLENTY of major releases so far this year. But aside from that, doesn't anyone have an appetite for new music anymore? There's so much music out there, yet most threads discussing lesser known bands get little attention. Why? What motivates people to listen to new bands? Must they see a little bit of a trend starting before they give it a shot?

Well i think Brahm does have a solid point, for me at least there hasnt been to many recent reviews that catch my interest, and about people not wanting to listen new bands i think you also have a point but this forum is hardly a good place for me to discover new bands (new to me at least) and viceversa, for example my interests are mainly Thrash, Heavy, Power and Doom, how many interesting new bands are being disscussed within these genres? not many and also if i were to post about some thrash band that i recently discover, there are mainly two other posters that would care, one is Brahm and he probably knows more bands than myself and the other is Devoted whom with i talk on the MSN so its rather pointless, although i do admit that ive been lazy these days and i should post more about the bands im currently listening to.
I do make an effort to check the links that you and the other users post about new bands but most of the times i dont like what i hear so thats why i dont reply, in order to avoid the classic "this sucks" post i stay away of the thread resulting in me not posting at all, the one who said we need more posters is totally right, this site is fragmentated in small groups so thats why discussion rarely happens.

Mintrude · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:09 am

I still come here because you guys basically tuaght me everything I know about real metal, and if it wasn't for coming here I would still be listening to Slipknot :lame:

I think what this forum desperately needs is an influx of new posters (like Mentalmark, shame he had to leave :sad:

) who have some really interesting points and can make themn well

Ness · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:32 pm

Mintrude wrote:

I still come here because you guys basically tuaght me everything I know about real metal, and if it wasn't for coming here I would still be listening to Slipknot :lame:

I think what this forum desperately needs is an influx of new posters (like Mentalmark, shame he had to leave :sad:

) who have some really interesting points and can make themn well

KAKAMAN!!!

Fingon · **Joined:** Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:11 pm **Posts:** 3207

metalNESS wrote:

Mintrude wrote:

I still come here because you guys basically tuaght me everything I know about real metal, and if it wasn't for coming here I would still be listening to Slipknot :lame:

I think what this forum desperately needs is an influx of new posters (like Mentalmark, shame he had to leave :sad:

) who have some really interesting points and can make themn well

KAKAMAN!!!

Mintrude · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:40 pm

Adam · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:10 pm

The_Voice wrote:

Well i think Brahm does have a solid point, for me at least there hasnt been to many recent reviews that catch my interest, and about people not wanting to listen new bands i think you also have a point but this forum is hardly a good place for me to discover new bands (new to me at least) and viceversa, for example my interests are mainly Thrash, Heavy, Power and Doom, how many interesting new bands are being disscussed within these genres?

I understand that, but I've got the following albums lined up for reviews as soon as I can fit them in:

Forbidden - Forbidden Evil
Satan - Court in the Act
Mekong Delta - s/t (I'm gonna try to CLASSIC it up before the new one)
Pagan Altar - The Lords of Hypocrisy
Witchfinder General - Death Penalty

Some of those have been on my "to-do" list for awhile now, just because I've had so many promos sent to me that take precedence. It just sucks because it seems like no one pays attention to those bands. I reviewed almost the entire catalog of Solitude Productions, and there was some really good doom in there, but not many seemed to care that much.

leee · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:30 pm

I only come here for Ken and his long ass tounge. I go other places for serious metal discussion.

And Misha, Post Rock is a gayer genre name the "true" metal dude. wtf is post rock? Like rock died and a bunch of nerds from Finland started using computers?

Misha · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:39 pm

leee wrote:

I only come here for Ken and his long ass tounge. I go other places for serious metal discussion.

And Misha, Post Rock is a gayer genre name the "true" metal dude. wtf is post rock? Like rock died and a bunch of nerds from Finland started using computers?

Hahah, no.

Btw, have you never heard of post-punk or post-minimalism? It was there before post-rock... Same idea. It's from Great Britain originally, and it does rarely use computers. Maybe you have heard of Talk Talk or Slint?

noodles · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:43 pm

leee wrote:

And Misha, Post Rock is a gayer genre name the "true" metal dude. wtf is post rock? Like rock died and a bunch of nerds from Finland started using computers?

The general idea of post-rock is using rock instruments (guitar/bass/drums) to make music very different from standard rock structures.

Although Godspeed Your Black Emperor and Mogwai are at least half violins and electronics and shit so I don't know what the hell is going on there.

Anonymous · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:01 pm

leee wrote:

I only come here for Ken and his long ass tounge. I go other places for serious metal discussion.

And Misha, Post Rock is a gayer genre name the "true" metal dude. wtf is post rock? Like rock died and a bunch of nerds from Finland started using computers?

You're pretty funny for a gay dude. :lol:

Kuruus · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:05 am

We need more people here with skills! Specifically, Photoshop or Camera skills. Those contain some of the funniest posts in Helheim

Caligula_K · **Joined:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm **Posts:** 3561

Astaroth wrote:

may be a stupid question, but what exactly is the "ad hominem argument"?

Sorry, didn't notice this. Ad hominem arguments are a logical fallacy where you attack the person instead of the argument. So, if in a discussion you say "you suck and your opinion sucks!" thats ad hominem.

Skartasis · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:21 am

I still visit this site occasionally, but... I dont know. The old days are gone when we were just one big happy disfunctioning "family". None of the current topics really interest me, propably because my tastes havent really changed at all during these last years and no, it is not a bad thing. I dont need to broaden my tastes if I dont want to or if I'm happy with the stuff I listen to.. These days helheim gets most of my attention, the best topics seem to be here nowdays. I havent participated in an interesting musical discussion on ages. But hey, I still visit this site on hopes of finding something awesome. I havent lost hope yet.

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