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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:33 pm 
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No-one's saying that people should be free to break the laws of the land just because they have a different background to the rest of us. We have plenty of serious crime committed by whites in the west, moreso than that committed by Muslims or immigrants in general. You remember my link of a few pages back about how more left-wing/anarchist terrorism was plotted than Islamic? The problem isn't that our western values aren't being shoved down brown peoples' throats enough. The problem is that western governments prop up shitjobs like Mubarak and Netanyahu, blame the entire Muslim community for the actions of an ignorant few, and expect Muslims everywhere to be apologetic for crimes that they did not commit. It would like be complaining that the archbishop of Canterbury doesn't do enough to stop the Westborough Baptists, or blaming me for a white person in another city committing rape.

Arrest people if they break the law, leave them to live their lives as they see fit if not. What's hard about that? The vast majority of Muslims reject extremism as it is without being browbeaten constantly by arrogant finger-waggling turds like Cameron. The state should not, must not regulate behaviour or demand that people think in a certain way. This is cultural fascism, and is absolutely vile. Cameron is pandering to his increasingly unstable right-wingers, and this speech will do little except give moral support to fascists like the EDF.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Disagree. Liberal values must be upheld for Europe to function. The reason Europe has high standards of living and economic power is because of the importance given to equal rights, freedom of expression and tolerance, and any ideology whose adherents seek to reside in Europe must align themselves with the culture that produced and defined the aforementioned values.

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I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:51 pm 
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You honestly don't see a contradiction in proclaiming Europe to be a beacon of mankind due to freedom of expression, and then saying that everyone must 'align themselves' with a certain culture? Liberalism does not mean freedom to think along state-mandated lines.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:06 pm 
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This terrorism scare has gotten out of hand. I've been reading more and more Libertarian stuff recently, some of it a bit fringe, but it's definitely changing the way I look at things.

The "War on Terror" is a war that will never be won. It has simply become an excuse for Western governments to limit the freedoms of their citizenry. The more this becomes acceptable, the closer we are to having no freedoms at all.

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That means abandoning the notion that different communities should be able to live according to their own values and traditions as long as they stay within the law.


That's scary. Right now people think it's ok because they are being protected from Muslim terrorists. It's just opening the door for more oppressive measures against other groups.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Old Holborn hits it perfectly -

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Today, Dish Face will tell an eager press that "Britain" (he means you and me) must rejoice in being "British" (he means being like him). It will be lapped up by right wingers and nationalists as a way to ensure conformity, if necessary by force.

What he will not say is "do as you please, as long as it does not adversely affect the lives of others", the Libertarians motto. He will insist it is for the good of the "State" that he inflicts a thinly veiled attack on Islam. He will insist that the "British" have values that all must adhere to (whilst roundly ignoring the very same values as he bombs wedding parties in far off lands). He will insist that all are welcome (whilst quietly cancelling the 30 year direct debit that supported an authoritarian regime in Egypt) as long as they aspire to be "British". He will give succour to the thousands of EDF marching in Luton against "the Islamification of Britain" whilst continuing to fund Somali pirates.

I am not a Nationalist. I do not celebrate my "Britishness" whilst adoring roast beef, fine ales and my stiff upper lip any more than I celebrate my "Britishness" when drinking Margaux, feasting on Lamb Madras or listening to heavy dub with a joint.

In his attempt to stamp "conformity" on the tiny percentage of radical Muslims in this country, he will alienate huge swathes of the public that do not wish to watch cricket on a Sunday afternoon or prefer to grow dreadlocks and smoke weed. The harmless pastimes of those who choose their own lifestyles will be crushed and derided as "un-British".

In your rush to appease the masses, Mr Cameron, you will simply repeat what many others have attempted and failed to do- State controlled behaviour.

If you want to deradicalise Muslims, stop bombing their children. Stop supporting brutal regimes. Stop bribing your "friends" in the Middle East with weapons deals, stop stamping your "influence" on all you can see to aid the vested interests of those who fund your politics. In short, leave us alone.

If how others live does not adversely affect my life, I am happy for them to live their lives how they wish. If they wish to eat halal and pray 5 times a day, it is no business of mine and certainly no business of your all powerful State to insist they shouldn't.

My version of "Britishness" doesn't need State protection. It needs protection FROM the State


Thisis good too, from a more Lib Dem point of view as opposed to OH's anti-statism:

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Cameron talks about how we should reassert our national identity, our British values of freedom of speech and equal rights for everyone. It annoys me when people appropriate such positive values, which are common across all of humanity, for their country.

I find it quite distressing that he wraps all of this up as "active and muscular liberalism". It's not the sort of liberalism I recognise, which is all about ensuring that none are "enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity" (a phrase from the Preamble to our Constitution). I rather liked how my friend Norman Fraser summed it up on Facebook earlier today:

Muscular Liberalism' would appear to be liberalism with the tolerance and intelligence taken out.

I don't like the way that Cameron used a speech about dealing with Islamic extremism to talk about things like equal rights for women and gay people as though sexism and homophobia were confined to that very small bunch of people.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:56 pm 
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Fuck religion.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:07 am 
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Ist Krieg
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I read this about Marxism and am too lazy to do research of my own about it so share your thoughts, metalreviews!

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Marx had no idea about capitalism because his sociology was based on the flawed economics of Ricardo, who didn't even know about consumer surplus in market equilibrium. Granted, I may have drawn some of the same conclusions given the information he was aware of at the time, but it's a house built on sand.


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Right. I think the concept that people need to understand in order to 'get' this is what I was talking about earlier that Marx didn't understand. At market equilibrium there is both producer AND consumer surplus. The economists at the time of Marx had only figured out the producer surplus side of it, which would indeed paint a bleak picture of capitalistic markets as they saw it.

That's not to say Marxian economics is 'stupid' or uninteresting. It was just based on flawed assumptions, so its conclusions are likewise flawed.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:13 am 
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Goat wrote:
You honestly don't see a contradiction in proclaiming Europe to be a beacon of mankind due to freedom of expression, and then saying that everyone must 'align themselves' with a certain culture? Liberalism does not mean freedom to think along state-mandated lines.


lol that's what I thought when I read fridge's post.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:17 am 
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Ist Krieg

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Goat wrote:
You honestly don't see a contradiction in proclaiming Europe to be a beacon of mankind due to freedom of expression, and then saying that everyone must 'align themselves' with a certain culture? Liberalism does not mean freedom to think along state-mandated lines.


Aligning with the culture of liberalism, or unalignment. The jury is out as to whether Islam is capable of that, right?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:52 am 
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Goat wrote:
You honestly don't see a contradiction in proclaiming Europe to be a beacon of mankind due to freedom of expression, and then saying that everyone must 'align themselves' with a certain culture? Liberalism does not mean freedom to think along state-mandated lines.


Relax, it's not state mandated. Nobody 'must' do anything. It simply means cutting the purse strings of groups who don't 'promote democracy, equality and integration'. Otherwise, it would appear you are in favor of state sponsored cultural enclaves. Considering that human DNA hasn't changed, are you aware how people in general react to minority groups that are readily de-humanized?

At any rate, Britain is now paying the wages of lax immigration.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:05 am 
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Well, yes it is, in this case. Not that I'm in favour of giving state money to such groups, but the speech involves setting up a straw man and then using it as an excuse for Islam-bashing. And immigration is good for the economy.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:31 am 
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noodles wrote:
I read this about Marxism and am too lazy to do research of my own about it so share your thoughts, metalreviews!

Quote:
Marx had no idea about capitalism because his sociology was based on the flawed economics of Ricardo, who didn't even know about consumer surplus in market equilibrium. Granted, I may have drawn some of the same conclusions given the information he was aware of at the time, but it's a house built on sand.


Quote:
Right. I think the concept that people need to understand in order to 'get' this is what I was talking about earlier that Marx didn't understand. At market equilibrium there is both producer AND consumer surplus. The economists at the time of Marx had only figured out the producer surplus side of it, which would indeed paint a bleak picture of capitalistic markets as they saw it.

That's not to say Marxian economics is 'stupid' or uninteresting. It was just based on flawed assumptions, so its conclusions are likewise flawed.
Marxian values really don't take into account consumption insofar in his time workers didn't consume beyond the requirements of necessity. Consumption has been taken up by more contemporary theorists however so I would look to that. There still remains an inherently exploitative system in how labor is treated which can't be remedied by giving them a deal here and there.

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The "War on Terror" is a war that will never be won. It has simply become an excuse for Western governments to limit the freedoms of their citizenry. The more this becomes acceptable, the closer we are to having no freedoms at all.
To limit the freedoms of their citizenry? How about limit the freedom of other country's citizenry? The war on terror is a war that perpetuates terror. What is to be gained by doing so? More power for the sake of power isn't the right answer.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:45 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:

Quote:
The "War on Terror" is a war that will never be won. It has simply become an excuse for Western governments to limit the freedoms of their citizenry. The more this becomes acceptable, the closer we are to having no freedoms at all.
To limit the freedoms of their citizenry? How about limit the freedom of other country's citizenry? The war on terror is a war that perpetuates terror. What is to be gained by doing so? More power for the sake of power isn't the right answer.



That's true also. I was looking at it more from the perspective of the article, but you make a good point. The "War on Terror" might as well be the war with Eastasia/Eurasia.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:32 pm 
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It's not just a war being waged on a culture or region. How our government is set up, a fragmentary collection of bureaucracies and private contracts, waging war becomes an instrument of private corporations who influence these bureaucracies and receives the contracts. Dick Cheney, Halliburton, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Goat wrote:
And immigration is good for the economy.


And then the immigrants grow up and become just like us and have fewer kids, more immigration is needed, etc. What's wrong with just allowing the population to shrink, or even promoting childbearing? I think Tuesdays with Morie has done more for demographics than western governments ever have.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:24 am 
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traptunderice wrote:
It's not just a war being waged on a culture or region. How our government is set up, a fragmentary collection of bureaucracies and private contracts, waging war becomes an instrument of private corporations who influence these bureaucracies and receives the contracts. Dick Cheney, Halliburton, etc.

It's interesting to read this, coming from a boy who, just a few months ago, was saying he's not averse to violence in left-wing demonstrations etc.

So violence can only legitimately further your cause, and no other?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Karmakosmonaut wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
It's not just a war being waged on a culture or region. How our government is set up, a fragmentary collection of bureaucracies and private contracts, waging war becomes an instrument of private corporations who influence these bureaucracies and receives the contracts. Dick Cheney, Halliburton, etc.

It's interesting to read this, coming from a boy who, just a few months ago, was saying he's not averse to violence in left-wing demonstrations etc.

So violence can only legitimately further your cause, and no other?
Violence directed towards repressive institutions is different than against helpless populaces? Waging a war against Hitler is different than the violence in any number of third world countries being reigned down on the people by homicidal dictators?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:27 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
It's not just a war being waged on a culture or region. How our government is set up, a fragmentary collection of bureaucracies and private contracts, waging war becomes an instrument of private corporations who influence these bureaucracies and receives the contracts. Dick Cheney, Halliburton, etc.

It's interesting to read this, coming from a boy who, just a few months ago, was saying he's not averse to violence in left-wing demonstrations etc.

So violence can only legitimately further your cause, and no other?
Violence directed towards repressive institutions is different than against helpless populaces? Waging a war against Hitler is different than the violence in any number of third world countries being reigned down on the people by homicidal dictators?

The thing about violence, you see, is that there's always a party being victim to it. And who are you to judge whether they had it coming or not, without the bias of your left-wing extremism?

And the thing about repression, you see, is that there's always going to be someone feeling repressed. I myself could feel quite repressed living in an anarchist state, albeit differently to how the anarchists would define it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Karmakosmonaut wrote:
an anarchist state


Que?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Goat wrote:
Karmakosmonaut wrote:
an anarchist state


Que?

Whoops. An anarchist society.


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