Metal Reviews

I'd still argue that even if a person on the street thought of a death metal band or a black metal band it would most likely be cannibal corpse or a cradle of filth; bands that obviously aren't as compositionally ambitious as Lunar Aurora or Negura Bunget. I'd make the argument that some black metal bands stray so far from the compositional trappings of traditional rock/metal music that they should be classified differently into "underground black metal".

I don't think you are giving some metal bands enough credit when you grant their maxium composition skills as "a bit" more free than songs either, but I rarely ever think you give certain metal bands enough credit. Anyhow we've been down this road before and I'd prefer avoiding another argument. You obviously have a tremendous knowledge of music compared to most of us but it wouldn't hurt to lighten up on your favorite genre from a couple years ago sometimes.

That's if you're looking at bands that are imitating Iron Maiden or Helloween though, if you compare them to something like Behold the Arctopus, Meshuggah or Dillinger Escape Plan it gets kind of obvious that metal has changed a lot in at least some areas.


Nah, there's plenty of non-metal bands that have changed a ton over the course of their discography, Neurosis, King Crimson, Front Line Assembly, noodles can't think of any more because he's dumb and doesn't want to look at anything more than his top 10 last.fm artists.

new monstrosity is pretty good guys

New discussion: metal that uses music theory influenced songwriting methods has no brootality and sux.

new discussion:

how long is it til i die from heroin

And I could argue with you that there are more people around that actually have heard both Negura Bunget AND Lunar Aurora than people that know their bits about Raga or Drone (drone is not Sunn O))) ). But indeed, let's leave it here. You may be right about me being quite hard on metal, but if everyone was kissing post-rock-ass, I would be critical on that genre too. I'm just a very critical person, I'll try to control it a bit more.

Fair enough, Misha. I have grown to appreciate your viewpoint over time, and I think you've noted I'm far from a blind fan of "metal" as a genre and many of it's most acclaimed bands either.

emperorblackdoom,



Not to steal his thunder, but I don't think that was what he was referring to, and both I and Astaroth already mentioned that just because a person on the street might recognize the terms, it doesn't mean they'd actually know anything about them. ... However, I think Misha was suggesting that the mere fact that they'd be more likely to recognize the terms, and in some cases maybe even know of the bands you mentioned, demonstrates that the genre as a whole isn't as underground as the other genres he listed.

As for "underground black metal", that term seems redundant. Every genre and subgenre has respectively well-known and less well-known acts.



Maybe, but I guess if I had to choose, I'd prefer him being honest about how he feels and thinks. Sugar-coating the truth doesn't really accomplish anything, and I'd rather have what's genuine and true than what someone else thinks I want or need to hear.

Back on the issue of diversity... I thought of dance music also, but I don't know enough about it to make that kind of assessment. I only know of and listen to a small amount of it...

-Tyrion

EDIT - and once again I take too long to post

I saw some Raga d00d live 3 years ago and there were a bunch of hippies there. They had fuckin' crazy guitars, man.

I think what it comes down to is my points were very fine and perhaps not all that relevant in the discussion. Obviously, it would be an exaggeration to state that "everyone knows the bands Negura Bunget and Lunar Aurora" and I subsituted them in for "metal". I argued that those said bands are fundamentally different from Cannibal Corpse/Cradle of Flith; meanwhile, the term "underground black metal" is quite redundant indeed but perhaps another moniker (compositional progressive black metal?) is needed to distinguish the two.

I probably wouldn't have even posted in this thread had I not seen the comment about metal composition ranging from "songs to a bit more free", which I felt sells some metal bands a little short.

Your second point is also valid, but Misha did admit he likes to be a bit of a contrarian with his hypothetical post-rock idea, and I merely sought an admission from him on that.

Yeah, this surely was/is an interesting discussion The "bit more free" comment was not meant so harsh as it sounds, I openly admit I have problems with most post-Derek Bailey improv, and the guy himself (this is free improv), but I just can't say Burzum is composed freely when I know how free music can really be.

@ Leee: What do you mean by "most bands in most genres don't have the longevity as metal bands or metal bands that don't play metal anymore"? Are you saying that only metal bands exist for 30 or 40 years? I beg to differ and could name you countless examples of composers that have been writing for decades under one name, or bands that just keep going. What is more important is that while bands may be of shorter duration, the musicians themselves last long. If you pick a jazz giant like uhm, to mention a personal fav: Bernard Rich, you'd have a 47 year long career of playing jazz (and an even longer career making music, of course), and this is not even exceptionally long. Rich kept pushing the limitations of his instrument, and he was said to be at his best 3 months before he died.

the new dimmu borgir just leaked im downloading it to hear hellhammer drumming should be fun

Well, there's value in looking at this subject, as we have been, across all genres. But I think there's some value to looking at this stuff with a single genre in mind, too. Metal, for example.

As was said before, metal can only become so avant-garde and "free" before it literally becomes something else. On one hand, the genre is a limitation, but on the other hand it provides boundaries for artists to push - and that's usually when some of the best music is made.

Burzum might not be "free" compared to many artists and songwriters throughout all of music, but maybe it is for metal and that definately is saying something. Perhaps the more we pin metal (or any genre) down as being rigid and of little diversity, the more we can actually argue that the accomplishments and innovations within it are even more significant than we tend to first think.

This relates partly to what I said about timespan. When a genre is born, rules and boundaries are set. Some genres have more or stiffer ones than others, etc. Sometimes we can say, "well that's been done before in jazz (or blues or classical, etc.)". But in some cases, it's not like a metal artist has even heard any of that other music before. They're just creating and pushing as they desire given the knowledge and level they've achieved at that time given the material and confines they have to work with. ... I'm not trying to promote ignorance or mediocrity by any means, but I don't want to diminish or dismiss accomplishments for what they are either.

But again, I think we have been generally looking at the entire spectrum of music here...



Yeah, I understand and concur. I guess I just prefer bluntness over wishy washiness.

-Tyrion

Yeah but I mean like real bands that real people listen too, not figments of a stoned dutch guys mind........ I have absolutely no clue about jazz or any of that shit to be honest with you, I meant in a more of a mainstream manner since you lump metal in with that. In fact I don't know if personally I would even consider jazz music.....to me anyways it never enters my thoughts when I think of "music". Don't flip out, it is just me.

I like how Husker started the thread, but now everbody is ignoring what he's saying.

it's cuz i aint e-cool on metalreviews dawg

Your e-cool to me dawg.

It's probably a sitar ;) did it have a mad amount of resonating snares?

Yeah, lolz, but I was actually hoping you were going to give some more text, now that we're finally "discussing music".

I still would love to hear how broad your taste in music is.