the post count +1 thread (Music Edition)

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:50 pm

North From Here wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

I might write a response to this article because I have this dude's email.

Did you read his archived article about Burzum? Specifically this one: http://souciant.com/2011/03/black-metal-for-leftists/ I found his struggle with reconciling his love for Vikernes' music with his personal identity as a lefty a bit more intriguing than the usual arguments about Burzum music versus Burzum message, and he might be on to something with his conclusions about Varg as the 'eroding legend'.

That's not bad. I find the Burzum argument super uninteresting since I don't personally really like Burzum. Dude is obviously reactionary. I don't think it is a stretch to lump him into the 1990s backlash against the initial wave of globalization and the ensuing immigrants that flooded Europe. To me, the Drudkh question is more problematic, because they're racist, but they are much more ingrained in a racist social climate. Like Varg was an aristocrat's son who didn't like that black people moved into his neighborhood. His misanthropy is comparable to old dudes yelling "get off my lawn". Drudkh, instead, are locked into a history of totalitarianism, ethnic cleansing, fascism, partisans, guerilla armies, etc. Dudes might be wrong, but who am I to judge? Kahn-Harris isn't a hack scholar, but the first two pieces posted by him were jank. Currently I am finding it more interesting to describe why people would make such music than whether it's politically correct for Leftists to listen to right wing Nazis. I don't know.

North From Here · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:56 am

traptunderice wrote:

Drudkh, instead, are locked into a history of totalitarianism, ethnic cleansing, fascism, partisans, guerilla armies, etc. Dudes might be wrong, but who am I to judge?

Sounds like a bunch of discussions Charles and I used to have on this website. And yes, Roman Saenko is far more interesting to discuss than Varg, because there is a lot of context to the Drudkh family of bands and the Kharkov scene that is lacking in cheerful, rich, happy Norway. Just comparing Drudkh and Nokturnal Mortum makes Drudkh look very inoffensive.

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:00 pm

North From Here wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

Drudkh, instead, are locked into a history of totalitarianism, ethnic cleansing, fascism, partisans, guerilla armies, etc. Dudes might be wrong, but who am I to judge?

Sounds like a bunch of discussions Charles and I used to have on this website. And yes, Roman Saenko is far more interesting to discuss than Varg, because there is a lot of context to the Drudkh family of bands and the Kharkov scene that is lacking in cheerful, rich, happy Norway. Just comparing Drudkh and Nokturnal Mortum makes Drudkh look very inoffensive.

I read the discussions. Because of them I don't listen to much Drudkh anymore. Putting the effort into finding good black metal that doesn't endorse ethnic cleansing was worth ending the hesitant feelings one has in listening to ideologically fucked up music. Kahn-Harris is directed more towards the symbol of Varg and really never addresses the practice of listening to Varg. Varg represents essentially what Europe is for most people. The EU, France's reactions to the riots years back by young brown kids, folks like Habermas and Derrida who support Europe as a driving force in history, all of these things do exactly what Varg does (albeit laden down with Nazism for him) in disavowing the heterogeneity of Europe in order to posit a white Europe. If anything Varg should be commended for being so ideologically heavy-handed or perhaps honest. The circle around Drudkh if anything rejects such an image of Europe; in some ways for them, Europe is a contested battlefield. Being explicitly racist is more sincere than the ideological masking of other forms of racism. tl;dr: black metal is super European.

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:20 pm

Zadok wrote:

Thought this was a good piece:

Quote:

While this abundance has fulfilled my metal dreams, it has been accompanied by a strange sense of deflation. To some extent this is because dreams fulfilled are almost always disappointing. There are also good reasons why abundance does not necessarily satisfy. The ease of finding what was once obscure takes away the pleasures of anticipation, of discovery, of searching things out. The fact that metal music is no longer found exclusively in physical media removes much of that precious ‘aura’ that can accompany physical art objects. Demo tapes were exciting and mysterious objects because one had to ‘work’ to track them down. In the 1990s, I remember hearing rumours that there was a Pakistani metal band who had released a demo, something that seemed impossibly obscure and exotic at the time. I tried and failed to track down their tape, but I did track down others from faraway metal lands like the Phillipines and Peru and there was always a delightful frisson when tapes from distant lands finally arrived in the mail. Today, there isn’t much frisson to googling something and finding it. Stripped of the aura, rare and obscure metal recordings become much more mundane.

http://souciant.com/2013/11/too-much-metal/

So Kahn-Harris actually sent this out to the metal studies listserv with these comments:

Quote:

I've finally finished turning my keynote from the Bowling Green conference into an article. I'm publishing it in an unconventional way: it's going to be published in a series of weekly installments in the web magazine Souciant. Once the installments are complete it will be republished as a single entity.

This is his actual keynote speech from that conference and the article that an entire books is being centered around! I wasn't considering taking his piece seriously, but now totally am. Holy shit. And here's the discussion that has proliferated around it: http://www.deathmetal.org/news/does-met ... -lifespan/

North From Here · **Posted:** Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:40 am

traptunderice wrote:

North From Here wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

Drudkh, instead, are locked into a history of totalitarianism, ethnic cleansing, fascism, partisans, guerilla armies, etc. Dudes might be wrong, but who am I to judge?

Sounds like a bunch of discussions Charles and I used to have on this website. And yes, Roman Saenko is far more interesting to discuss than Varg, because there is a lot of context to the Drudkh family of bands and the Kharkov scene that is lacking in cheerful, rich, happy Norway. Just comparing Drudkh and Nokturnal Mortum makes Drudkh look very inoffensive.

I read the discussions. Because of them I don't listen to much Drudkh anymore. Putting the effort into finding good black metal that doesn't endorse ethnic cleansing was worth ending the hesitant feelings one has in listening to ideologically fucked up music. Kahn-Harris is directed more towards the symbol of Varg and really never addresses the practice of listening to Varg. Varg represents essentially what Europe is for most people. The EU, France's reactions to the riots years back by young brown kids, folks like Habermas and Derrida who support Europe as a driving force in history, all of these things do exactly what Varg does (albeit laden down with Nazism for him) in disavowing the heterogeneity of Europe in order to posit a white Europe. If anything Varg should be commended for being so ideologically heavy-handed or perhaps honest. The circle around Drudkh if anything rejects such an image of Europe; in some ways for them, Europe is a contested battlefield. Being explicitly racist is more sincere than the ideological masking of other forms of racism. tl;dr: black metal is super European.

It is a reasonable opinion that you (and Charles) hold, but still one I contest. These guys emerged in a Europe far different from Northern or Western Europe traditionally viewed as 'Europe'. I see people like Roman Saenko as traditional 19th century European nationalists, which now would likely be called racist, but considering Ukrainian history, and its inability to experience an official nationalism at all (beyond a few odd years at various junctures), why not grant the culture around Drudkh a pass until Ukraine nationalizes for a generation or so? As we've seen in the demonstrations in Kiev recently, the Ukrainian identity is still very much up for grabs, and the Habermass's and Derridas' of the world still comfortably zone out Ukraine from Core Europe (taking this pairing from the book: Old Europe, New Europe, Core Europe?), so I am arguing Varg and Roman simply don't start from the same place.

While Varg comfortably posits "white Europe" from his fantastically happy and rich country, Mr Saenko is contending with legacies of Polish and then Russian and then Communist rule, a Communism that wildly swung from supporting to opposing Ukrainian nationalism. In Kharkov itself you have Russian separatists that want E. Ukraine returned to Putin's motherland, and the Drudkh guys are most staunchly opposed to that, from their Ukrainian flag shirts to their Taras Shevchenko and Ukrainian Insurgent Army lyrics. I see the struggle for national identity in Drudkh's music, and any racial trappings within that really are subservient to the national struggle for identity (and contextually based in Ukraine's often ugly, bloody, and racist history). If the Ukraine does one day become Western European and post-modern in society, then I think it is fair to take the future Roman Saenko to task for cloaking racism within the ethno-nationalist ideal, but until then I will enjoy Drudkh with a clean conscience.

tl;dr Saenko can't be judged by Western 'European' criteria

noodles · **Posted:** Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 am

this is interesting but i have nothing to add

traptunderice · **Posted:** Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:31 am

North From Here wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

North From Here wrote:

Sounds like a bunch of discussions Charles and I used to have on this website. And yes, Roman Saenko is far more interesting to discuss than Varg, because there is a lot of context to the Drudkh family of bands and the Kharkov scene that is lacking in cheerful, rich, happy Norway. Just comparing Drudkh and Nokturnal Mortum makes Drudkh look very inoffensive.

I read the discussions. Because of them I don't listen to much Drudkh anymore. Putting the effort into finding good black metal that doesn't endorse ethnic cleansing was worth ending the hesitant feelings one has in listening to ideologically fucked up music. Kahn-Harris is directed more towards the symbol of Varg and really never addresses the practice of listening to Varg. Varg represents essentially what Europe is for most people. The EU, France's reactions to the riots years back by young brown kids, folks like Habermas and Derrida who support Europe as a driving force in history, all of these things do exactly what Varg does (albeit laden down with Nazism for him) in disavowing the heterogeneity of Europe in order to posit a white Europe. If anything Varg should be commended for being so ideologically heavy-handed or perhaps honest. The circle around Drudkh if anything rejects such an image of Europe; in some ways for them, Europe is a contested battlefield. Being explicitly racist is more sincere than the ideological masking of other forms of racism. tl;dr: black metal is super European.

It is a reasonable opinion that you (and Charles) hold, but still one I contest. These guys emerged in a Europe far different from Northern or Western Europe traditionally viewed as 'Europe'. I see people like Roman Saenko as traditional 19th century European nationalists, which now would likely be called racist, but considering Ukrainian history, and its inability to experience an official nationalism at all (beyond a few odd years at various junctures), why not grant the culture around Drudkh a pass until Ukraine nationalizes for a generation or so? As we've seen in the demonstrations in Kiev recently, the Ukrainian identity is still very much up for grabs, and the Habermass's and Derridas' of the world still comfortably zone out Ukraine from Core Europe (taking this pairing from the book: Old Europe, New Europe, Core Europe?), so I am arguing Varg and Roman simply don't start from the same place.

While Varg comfortably posits "white Europe" from his fantastically happy and rich country, Mr Saenko is contending with legacies of Polish and then Russian and then Communist rule, a Communism that wildly swung from supporting to opposing Ukrainian nationalism. In Kharkov itself you have Russian separatists that want E. Ukraine returned to Putin's motherland, and the Drudkh guys are most staunchly opposed to that, from their Ukrainian flag shirts to their Taras Shevchenko and Ukrainian Insurgent Army lyrics. I see the struggle for national identity in Drudkh's music, and any racial trappings within that really are subservient to the national struggle for identity (and contextually based in Ukraine's often ugly, bloody, and racist history). If the Ukraine does one day become Western European and post-modern in society, then I think it is fair to take the future Roman Saenko to task for cloaking racism within the ethno-nationalist ideal, but until then I will enjoy Drudkh with a clean conscience.

tl;dr Saenko can't be judged by Western 'European' criteria

I'm in total agreement. I just think the nationalist struggle is a gnarly conflict that I don't want to involve myself in. You know the situation moreso than I and the historical circumstances. You compare it to 19th century nationalist struggles; I would be curious how it is different than 20th century liberation struggles that often drew nationalist lines from my understanding. The problem becomes the fact that their national identity is based on the exclusion of a particular ethnicity. I don't think that has to necessarily be the case. But ultimately much like the liberation struggles throughout colonized countries, I can't judge in terms of it being an ambiguous ethical realm.

North From Here · **Posted:** Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:47 am

traptunderice wrote:

I'm in total agreement. I just think the nationalist struggle is a gnarly conflict that I don't want to involve myself in. You know the situation moreso than I and the historical circumstances. You compare it to 19th century nationalist struggles; I would be curious how it is different than 20th century liberation struggles that often drew nationalist lines from my understanding. The problem becomes the fact that their national identity is based on the exclusion of a particular ethnicity. I don't think that has to necessarily be the case. But ultimately much like the liberation struggles throughout colonized countries, I can't judge in terms of it being an ambiguous ethical realm.

Good point: there might be some elements drawn from 20th century liberation struggles as well, but my first inclination was to compare it to 19th century nation states and typical white nationalism, which probably implies something of a non-white colonial other. That formula does feel somewhat inverted when considering Ukraine's history as something of a colony itself. Since the traditional historical parallels do feel lacking: maybe present day Ukraine has more in common with the Serbia of the 1990s? I certainly hope not, but there are some warning signs.

Anyway, you and Charles have understandable reasons to step back from Drudkh as the band's history is very nebulous. I'm just going to stay faithful to the idea that Saenko and friends have moved on from the beliefs they likely held in their pre-Drudkh days within the large, fluid, and often highly racist Kharkov black metal scene.

Goat · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:22 pm

Just when you* start to worry that you're falling out of love with metal, you get drunk and play lots of black metal very loudly. If only it always sounded this good...

*me. Obviously...

North From Here · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:26 pm

Zadok wrote:

Just when you* start to worry that you're falling out of love with metal, you get drunk and play lots of black metal very loudly. If only it always sounded this good...
*me. Obviously...

Well glad you had a good experience with it. My advice has always been the same: try the sound of silence for a while. It has served me quite well the last 12 or 13 years, to the point that my commitment to metal has never faltered.

Goat · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:30 pm

North From Here wrote:

Well glad you had a good experience with it. My advice has always been the same: try the sound of silence for a while. It has served me quite well the last 12 or 13 years, to the point that my commitment to metal has never faltered.

My coping mechanism is usually to listen to as broad a selection of music as possible, and I've been experimenting with mainstream stuff like Lorde and Queens of the Stone Age recently just as a palate-cleanser. It definitely helps remind you want you want from music, and how underground metal can do things that mainstream pop can't. I always come back to metal for the sheer riffs, though, bands like Church of Misery and High on Fire making it catchy and entertaining while the more esoteric and weird bands are good for dipping in and out of.

North From Here · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:46 pm

Zadok wrote:

North From Here wrote:

Well glad you had a good experience with it. My advice has always been the same: try the sound of silence for a while. It has served me quite well the last 12 or 13 years, to the point that my commitment to metal has never faltered.

My coping mechanism is usually to listen to as broad a selection of music as possible, and I've been experimenting with mainstream stuff like Lorde and Queens of the Stone Age recently just as a palate-cleanser. It definitely helps remind you want you want from music, and how underground metal can do things that mainstream pop can't. I always come back to metal for the sheer riffs, though, bands like Church of Misery and High on Fire making it catchy and entertaining while the more esoteric and weird bands are good for dipping in and out of.

The mainstream method works too, as I went through a QotSA phase a few years back as well, and a Nero-inspired dubstep thing last year. Silence works best for me, but there are a number of options really: varying between the mainstream, the silent pause, and then relying on one's past non-metal favorites like 70s prog, some classical, or 90s grunge (in my case). Between all those potential treatments, one is bound to work.

Goat · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:03 pm

North From Here wrote:

Zadok wrote:

North From Here wrote:

Well glad you had a good experience with it. My advice has always been the same: try the sound of silence for a while. It has served me quite well the last 12 or 13 years, to the point that my commitment to metal has never faltered.

My coping mechanism is usually to listen to as broad a selection of music as possible, and I've been experimenting with mainstream stuff like Lorde and Queens of the Stone Age recently just as a palate-cleanser. It definitely helps remind you want you want from music, and how underground metal can do things that mainstream pop can't. I always come back to metal for the sheer riffs, though, bands like Church of Misery and High on Fire making it catchy and entertaining while the more esoteric and weird bands are good for dipping in and out of.

The mainstream method works too, as I went through a QotSA phase a few years back as well, and a Nero-inspired dubstep thing last year. Silence works best for me, but there are a number of options really: varying between the mainstream, the silent pause, and then relying on one's past non-metal favorites like 70s prog, some classical, or 90s grunge (in my case). Between all those potential treatments, one is bound to work.

I can't listen to music at work, so silence is also a factor I guess. You're right that it's about variety, though. Strange, I'm into pop music now that my non-metal girlfriend ("I like Paul Weller, leave me alone") has never heard of. Being a music nerd is a strange thing...

Goat · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:00 am

Basically, as long as you're not listening to shit like Five Finger Death Punch, you're doing ok, metal brethren and sisterhood and ***. Merry Christmas.

North From Here · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:53 am

Zadok wrote:

Basically, as long as you're not listening to shit like Five Finger Death Punch, you're doing ok, metal brethren and sisterhood and ***. Merry Christmas.

Same to you, Zadster. Or a belated Happy Hanukkah too? I wasn't sure if you celebrated both.

Goat · **Posted:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:02 am

Not celebrated Hanukkah in a long time, so just Merry Christmas will do fine, heh!

Goat · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:08 pm

Eeeeek. Origin singer wins badass points:

http://www.metalinjection.net/av/origin ... -bands-set

traptunderice · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:41 pm

Zadok wrote:

Eeeeek. Origin singer wins badass points:

http://www.metalinjection.net/av/origin ... -bands-set

SHIT.

The best thing that Megadeth has done in years (beats the xmas album reviewed this week), but still doesn't beat the Sebastian Bach singing kiddie songs SNL skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OanWwoKj ... ture=share

Goat · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:04 am

http://www.invisibleoranges.com/2013/12 ... verything/

Seems good advice! Know there are a quite a few bands that I've never listened to properly (eg Summoning, as reminded by the classic this week) that I really should listen to properly as opposed to hearing the entire new deluge of stuff that gets pushed out every week...

noodles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:31 am

I'm glad I got over the need to listen to stuff that gets talked about a lot just so that I could have an opinion on it.

Caring about books also beats the pokemon/gotta catch 'em all feelings out of you because of the nature of the beast, too.

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