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TIME!! TO RAISE!! THE FLAG!! OF HATE!! \m/

Yes, this is an awesome debut, pretty underrated in the wake of the following classics, but this is where it ALL started... not to mention the most important fact, meaning that this is a great album on its own! Raw, primitive and untamed - things I definitely like 8)

I don't think the score on this Kreator album should be as high as it is. This still represents Kreator in their primitive state. Yes, the music was raw, very thrashy and agressive. Teh production still needed work as well as the execution of the guitar riffs. It wasn't until "Terrible Certainty" that the band really started to find their niche' in the thrash metal world. I'd give it 70 at best.....

agreed... though I'd say Kreator were at their top form on Extreme Agression.

Endless Pain is the draft of the band to be... imo, it should have stayed unreleased since it gave me a terribly bad first opinion of the band... this mid-eighties simplistic german thrash is now obsolete (thanks god !) that doesn't mean it was good when it was "new" either... :evil:

40/100 (it's a bit harsh, I know...)

WOw I can't believe what you all are saying. Raw primitive Kreator, where they can hardly play the riffs and the drumming is sloppy....thats the prime essence of the band. I would have given this a higher probably an 87. Just because it has so much spirit. I fucking love this album and no amount of shitty production will change my mind, Pleasure to Kill is my favorite but endless pain kills too. Its definately better than Enemy of God...so I'm still not sure why you gave the new album a better score than this one.

Because it's better ! isn't it simple ? Endless Pain sounds like shit compared to Enemy Of God & I don't only mean the production, the songs are way better on this new album too.... as are the guitar parts, drumming, bass parts, arrangements, artwork....well, everything is better in fact....
But I'm glad you enjoy Endless Pain... good for you !

That's an awful score. Tormentor and Bonebreaker are pretty much worth 40/100 alone. I rated this CD based on thrash at the time and various factors I mentioned in my review. They were 18, only had 6 songs going into the studio and compared to Thrash at the time this was a landmark release. Yes, by todays standards and even by Kreator standards it might have been sloppy or underformed, but lets compare it to Kill 'Em All, Killing Is My Business, Fistful Of Metal, Show No Mercy, and Feel The Fire. Is it any less primitive than those CD's? Did all those bands evolve from that, yes. Those CDs are praised up and down and for good reason. At the time they were the best available in the genre and should be rated as such, not rated for if they were released now and then comparing the CD to something released 20 years later... of course the production and song writing is going to be better, they have had 20 years to work on that!

my judgement of this album was based on both my memories (I was 14 and totally into thrash metal at that time &, still, I hated it...) and by having listened to this album less than 3 months ago... so the production is raw, that's okay for me.. but the band sounds so un-pro, the song writing is so unequal (not to say worse)... and what you said confirmed me what I thought it was, it's only a demo and I think that's what it should have stayed (for ultra-underground lovers to worship it )...

and yes, Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth etc.. all had a raw debut but they did have great songs too and this terribly lacks here... the band improved a lot since then and, as you might have seen, I really enjoy their last album.

so, to sum up, by today's standards, imo, it deserves 10 to 20/100... by my eighties standards it's 40/100.. and it's the best I can do ! sorry... :oops:

The feeling on "Endless Pain" is there for sure but sometimes that is not enough to make a good album. My personal favorites are Coma of Souls, Extreme Agression, Violent Revolution, Terrible Certainty and Live Kreation.

the only "classic" Kreator album i have is PTK, it.. er... kills.

so the best ones from this era are ptk, Extreme Aggression and Terrible Certainty, right? i will look into them...

Has been gathering a few millimeters of dust on the shelf and I am relistening it for the first time in...say 5 years!

Main complaint is the terrible production. Drums, guitars and vocals really sound crappy.
If the production was done better, it would score at least 10 points more IMO.
My judgement: 70/100

The production sounds fine to me. I have the 2000 remaster.... is that what you're all basing your opinions on?

nope, the one I listened to was the first cd edition.. I don't know if the 2000 remaster is any better but since I don't mind the crappy sound that much I can't see what it would change for me... did they re-record the album ?

No, they just remastered it for a better sound. Keep in mind that A LOT of "old" records had an extremely sucky sound the first time they were pressed on cd, simply because people at the time still couldn't handle the new technology. This is why, for example, the entire Led Zeppelin catalog had been remastered from scratch in the early 90's already: because the first cd edition sounded like shit.
My copy is a remaster too (which also has a Tormentor demo as a bonus), it's raw but fine, not too far removed from PTK actually. I never heard the original so I can't compare.

My point is it thrashes more than their lame slower shit now a days. Coma of Souls is there best album, Pleasure to Kill and Endless Pain are my favorites. Violent Revolution and Enemy of God are Nu-Kreator and less thrashy, hence they are less good. Endorama deserves neither your attention nor insults. But if we're talking about a thrash metal band....then I think the only way to quantify their greatness...is by how much they thrash, and on Pleasure to Kill and Endless Pain, they thrash your fucking face off. So now its my turn to tell you guys to stop the snobbery, production doesnt matter at all...it never has and it never will, if you can't hear whats being played then you're not listening hard enough, or your mind is not metal enough to comprehend the violent riffage and general thrash mayhem.

I don't give a fvkk about how bad the production is... it's the music that doesn't suits me.... primitive german thrash doesn't appeal to me, never did, never will....

in fact, I started thinking Kreator were real musicians when their technical/song-writing abilities became better... that would be in 1989 with Estreme Aggression and, god!, did it take them a long time to get there... and I mean it with all respect 'cause you can hear how hard they worked to actually become a very good thrash metal band !

Eh, they're not good anymore. you're all about technical ability arent you. Forget about having any feeling in the music...lets write as many complicated songs with as many sweeping arpeggios as possible. only then will any band be good.....that doesnt sound right at all.

first, if you had listened to this Kreator you wouldn't say it's technical, so I suggest you listen to it first & then we can talk about it...

second, I don't care how technical a song, a musician or a band can be... but I do have a problem when a musician, song or band is that weak you think they still have a few lessons to take... that's the case with first era Kreator and particulary on EP...

third, stop judging people you don't know !

I never said it was technical. You're a lot older than I, yet your reading comprehension is comprable to that of a 7 year old. Funny, yet not suprising.

I see the kind of guy you are... you always want to have the last word and once you had it you're sure you're right... such an arrogant behaviour !

so, from no on, you'll have all the words when it comes to me...

happy ?