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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:08 am 
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Einherjar

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But the evolution from Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Tormentor, nMe, on into Bathory and Deathcrush era Mayhem, into Darkthrone and company. That's why the idea that First Wave Black Metal actually isn't black metal and ought not be talked about like it is bothers me. That's more then just influence to my ears it's a direct evolution in much the same way that traditional metal evolved from Black Sabbath through Deep Purple and Judas Priest to Iron Maiden and Angel Witch. At least your argument is based on how the bands differ sonically. Had someone on my other forum argue that black metal in its entirety is not a legitimate genre because black metal doesn't have a unique sound and only attracts the name because of its stanic imagery and lyrics.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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cry of the banshee wrote:
Goat wrote:
None of these bands are regulars on my playlists, so this will be an informative thread. I like Bathory and Venom as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't say they're as enjoyable to listen to on a regular basis as other bands. Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate win out above other bands mentioned here for me simply because they're always fun listens.

Venom - Black Metal to this day still pumps my fucking 'nads.
The day I bought it is permanently etched in y mind: early December 1983, cold and foggy after - school - day in Santa Cruz, CA (is there any other kind of day in SC?), walk into the local record store, look around... already have Accept, Exciter, Mercyful Fate... moving alphabetically on... what's this? Venom - Black Metal, with a rather sinister looking goats head gracing the black cover... flip it around... Cronos: Rabid Captor of Bestial Malevolence... Abbadon: Barbaric Guardian to the 7 Gates of Hell... Mantas: Grand Master of Hades and Mayhem... hmmm... looks interesting. Take it to the counter whip out my twenty clams, cashier raises his eyebrows and gives me my change. Grab my purchase, hit the bus and upon reaching my dad's empty house (at work, ya know) smoke a bowl of blonde hash, full of anticipation... slap the vinyl on to the turntable (system consisted of Technics SL-221 turntable, pioneer SX-1250 receiver and HPM-100 speakers, that era of stereo equipment cannot be beat), strategically placed in a triangular position between which i sat indian style on the ground... a dragon's hiss... I recall feeling the bass not only in my gut, but in my bone marrow, diving up and down like some weird roller coaster... the chainsaw guitar possessing a rather distinctly slithery, serpent-like slinkiness.. the voice that of somebody on fire whilst howling in the falling rain... the skinswork, nothing special but doing it's job... yeah, this is for me. A few days later, I traded my Kill 'em All album for Welcome to Hell from some other dirthead... it was a no-brainer. Long story short Black Metal will most likely be in my playlist 'til I die.

This story explains so much as to why we differ on our opinions on Venom. I just downloaded Welcome to Hell for a friend and listened to a few tracks while burning the album to a disc. I didn't have this moment of digging into the vinyl and stumbling upon the album.

RelentlessOblivion wrote:
But the evolution from Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Tormentor, nMe, on into Bathory and Deathcrush era Mayhem, into Darkthrone and company. That's why the idea that First Wave Black Metal actually isn't black metal and ought not be talked about like it is bothers me. That's more then just influence to my ears it's a direct evolution in much the same way that traditional metal evolved from Black Sabbath through Deep Purple and Judas Priest to Iron Maiden and Angel Witch. At least your argument is based on how the bands differ sonically. Had someone on my other forum argue that black metal in its entirety is not a legitimate genre because black metal doesn't have a unique sound and only attracts the name because of its stanic imagery and lyrics.

If people don't know the sonic qualities that distinguish black metal from other genres then you just shouldn't talk to them. There are differences in terms of the guitar, vocals, and production that make it distinct from other genres. If it is only about satanic imagery then how do you explain bands like Anorexia Nervosa, NSBM, or Panopticon, all of which have nothing to do with satan tropes?

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Einherjar
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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
But the evolution from Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Tormentor, nMe, on into Bathory and Deathcrush era Mayhem, into Darkthrone and company. That's why the idea that First Wave Black Metal actually isn't black metal and ought not be talked about like it is bothers me.

Like other posters, I just don't see those particular bands as being true "black metal" bands, although the records they put out during that time frame clearly contain the building blocks of the sub-genre. It's like classifying Motorhead, Diamond Head or Anvil as actual thrash metal (which they aren't), instead of simply bearing influential proto-thrash qualities (which they do). I agree that all those bands had some black metal features at the time, but most of them moved far enough away from that sound that it's really hard to define them as such. I just think it's more accurate to describe the period itself as the "First Wave of Black Metal" instead of flatly labeling the bands as black metal.

RelentlessOblivion wrote:
Had someone on my other forum argue that black metal in its entirety is not a legitimate genre because black metal doesn't have a unique sound and only attracts the name because of its satanic imagery and lyrics.

Sounds like a guy who skimmed a few articles then listened to a couple songs and fancied himself an expert. Noob. :lame:

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:33 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
Had someone on my other forum argue that black metal in its entirety is not a legitimate genre because black metal doesn't have a unique sound and only attracts the name because of its stanic imagery and lyrics.


He doesn't know what he's talking about.
The sound is what defines the genre, if satanic imagery and lyrics were the main factor, or even a deciding factor, then Deicide would be black metal. Of course, they are not... because they are death metal, and that's exactly what they sound like. It really is that simple.

Black metal and death metal are two entirely different, distinct aesthetics, yet they oftentimes overlap in terms of "satanic" themes. The difference is the sound and overall approach. Death metal is a bludgeoning hammer; black metal is a swarm of piranha.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:36 am 
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Einherjar

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Needless to say she didn't last long.

Anyway back to the topic at handI've always felt that discrediting the originators of a genre based on its evolution makes little sense. You can hear the BM in Venom, nMe, Bathory etc. The reason your Motorhead example doesn't work is because whilst influential on thrash they have few if any of the hallmarks associated with that genre.I'm quite enjoying this discussion. Been a while since I've had the chance to seriously talk about a genre.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:22 am 
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Ist Krieg

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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
Needless to say she didn't last long.

Anyway back to the topic at handI've always felt that discrediting the originators of a genre based on its evolution makes little sense. You can hear the BM in Venom, nMe, Bathory etc. The reason your Motorhead example doesn't work is because whilst influential on thrash they have few if any of the hallmarks associated with that genre.I'm quite enjoying this discussion. Been a while since I've had the chance to seriously talk about a genre.


These topics are fun (I listened to Hellhammer for the first time in years, so thanks for the discussion), as is healthy disagreement. I don't see it as 'discrediting' so much as qualifying the influence these bands had on the 2nd Wave. I think the whole issue would be resolved if the 2nd Wave was simply known as Black Metal and the 1st Wave was known as proto-Black Metal. First Wave implies a parity with Second Wave when really no such parity could exist: again the Second Wave is a mostly enclosed set of Norwegian bands with a love for tremolo picking, meanwhile, First Wave doesn't really center in any one location or favor any one particular guitar technique.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:03 am 
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Einherjar

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:56 am
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Location: Australia
Perhaps not but there are identifying characteristics shared by most bands/albums considered to be first wave black metal. Additionally the progression can be heard to the point Mayhem's Deathcrush is considered first wave while De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is second wave BM. The tone and approach taken by first wave BM bands and atmosphere they create is black metal - it is an atmosphere enhanced in the second wave no doubt and more techniques were added to achieve this. Early thrash wasn't too dssimilar to bands associated with speed metal and the NWOBHM movement but we still call them thrash. I suppose we could easily shift all first wave bands into other genres. Call Venom traditional metal for instance but genres need a little grey area in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:23 am 
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Karma Whore
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Bathory and nothing else matters to me, Venom released some great albums but collectively Quorthon's work ranks among the best in metal. Celtic Frost I'd probably place above Venom as well, but nowhere near Bathory in terms of musical depth, atmosphere, variation, and riffs

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