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 Post subject: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:45 pm 
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Einherjar

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Inspired a bit by the Norwegian BM thread I thought it would be interesting to see what first wabe BM albums we come up with. Like the other thread they don't have to be the most influential or immediately recognisable just the five you come back to most frequently. Mine would be, in no particular order:

Venom - Black Metal
Tormentor - Anno Domini
Celtic Frost - To Mega Therion
Sodom - In The Sign Of Evil
Morbid - December Moon


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:13 pm 
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Bathory - S/T (Hail Quorthon :dio: )
Bulldozer - Day of Wrath (Venom-esque Italian blackness with some killer shredding.)
Mercyful Fate - Melissa / Don't Break the Oath (Like choosing between children!)
Tormentor - Anno Domini (Criminally unheralded)
Venom - Black Metal (Fast, loose and still so much fun)

Honorable Mention - Hellhammer - Demon Entrails Compilation (It's know it's cheating, but I don't care.)

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:50 pm 
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None...

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:26 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
None...

:huh: Seriously?!

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:05 pm 
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Ist Krieg

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Venom- Welcome To Hell
Celtic Frost- To Mega Therion
Bathory- The Return....
Hellhammer- Satanic Rites
Mayhem- Deathcrush


Last edited by huskerc7 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:14 pm 
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"First wave" is weird, because the black metal aesthetic was still being hammered out, therefore you have bands like (early) Sodom, for example that are technically thrash, but were fundamental in the formation of what we now know as black metal.
Venom and (especially) Mercyful Fate, despite being forerunners, really aren't "black metal". They were absolutely essential to it's evolution, though.

My list:
Mayhem - Deathcrush
Bathory - Under the Sign of the Black Mark
Sodom - In the Sign of Evil
Hellhammer - Apocalyptic Raids
Morbid - December Moon

honorary mentions:
Venom - Welcome to Hell
Tormentor - Anno Domini

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:45 pm 
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None of these bands are regulars on my playlists, so this will be an informative thread. I like Bathory and Venom as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't say they're as enjoyable to listen to on a regular basis as other bands. Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate win out above other bands mentioned here for me simply because they're always fun listens.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:07 am 
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Thrash til' Deth wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
None...

:huh: Seriously?!

Sodom and Celtic Frost are fine. I prefer Celtic Frost more on stuff like Monotheist and their earlier stuff. Like, I'd listen to Bathory, but I don't ever go out of my way to fire it up. I listened to it when I was writing about black metal, but not really something I go out of my way to hear. I could never get into King Diamond's vocal, mad respect but not for me. If we're counting early Mayhem, then those are great.

V will forever hate me, because I talk shit about Venom.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:32 am 
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Mercyful Fate is really just traditional heavy metal cloaked in a hooded black robe, though.
That being said, Melissa (really all MF albums are top notch) is absolutely essential and has always been in my top three best albums ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:37 am 
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Influence aside, I fucking love the darker, raw thrash records of this period. Sooo much greatness coming out of the underground at this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:48 am 
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Thrash til' Deth wrote:
Influence aside, I fucking love the darker, raw thrash records of this period. Sooo much greatness coming out of the underground at this time.

Yeah, mid 80s thrash/black/ whatever is still some of the best shit out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:45 am 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
"First wave" is weird, because the black metal aesthetic was still being hammered out, therefore you have bands like (early) Sodom, for example that are technically thrash, but were fundamental in the formation of what we now know as black metal.
Venom and (especially) Mercyful Fate, despite being forerunners, really aren't "black metal". They were absolutely essential to it's evolution, though.



Yes, I'm glad this written here first, because otherwise I might have launched into a rant about "first wave" black metal, which doesn't exist like second wave does.

Among the bands typically listed here, quite enjoy early Bathory and Celtic Frost, while greatly respecting Hellhammer and Mercyful Fate. Basically I just gave a more diplomatic version of trapt's first response.


Post second wave list should be interesting. Its been a while, maybe we'd even have to go to 10?


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:24 am 
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So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave? I sort of feel like people want to discredit bands like Venom and Hellhammer because they are atypical of black metal in the modern sense. Why early death metal doesn't suffer the same problem I don't know I mean early Death, Possessed, and Atheist don't have much in common sonically with Suffocation, Cryptopsy, and Nile for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:05 am 
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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave? I sort of feel like people want to discredit bands like Venom and Hellhammer because they are atypical of black metal in the modern sense. Why early death metal doesn't suffer the same problem I don't know I mean early Death, Possessed, and Atheist don't have much in common sonically with Suffocation, Cryptopsy, and Nile for example.

True, but they still possess enough of the same qualities to exist within the same sub-genre. With the first wave of black metal bands, you can really only categorize certain early albums as bearing any semblance to what would become the 90's black metal aesthetic. The Teutonic bands gradually moved away from their chaotic, low-fi beginnings into a well produced, more technically proficient thrash sound. Celtic Frost continually re-invented itself, for better or worse, throughout the 80's. Venom tanked in both quality and street cred while Mercyful Fate was far more influential from an image and lyrical standpoint than from their musical output. Honestly, it's very difficult to slap a clear label on any of the first wave bands DURING THAT TIME because their sound really encompassed a lot of different current and future sub-genres. A truly exciting time in the evolution of the metal underground!

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:09 am 
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North From Here wrote:
Post second wave list should be interesting. Its been a while, maybe we'd even have to go to 10?

Are we doing this here or starting a new thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:57 am 
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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave? I sort of feel like people want to discredit bands like Venom and Hellhammer because they are atypical of black metal in the modern sense. Why early death metal doesn't suffer the same problem I don't know I mean early Death, Possessed, and Atheist don't have much in common sonically with Suffocation, Cryptopsy, and Nile for example.
The creation of the actual genre transcended what came before it. You have clear predecessors historically, but the Norwegian scene transcended it in such a way that the thematic link was severed. I am hardly convinced when people tell me that they hear In the Nightside Eclipse in Sodom's Sign of Evil.

Thrash til' Deth wrote:
North From Here wrote:
Post second wave list should be interesting. Its been a while, maybe we'd even have to go to 10?

Are we doing this here or starting a new thread?
Post second wave is so vague. Like, does that include Sigh, BAN, DsO, late Limbonic Art, Prometheus, and WITTR? Like, ummm...

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:29 am 
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Thrash til' Deth wrote:
RelentlessOblivion wrote:
So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave? I sort of feel like people want to discredit bands like Venom and Hellhammer because they are atypical of black metal in the modern sense. Why early death metal doesn't suffer the same problem I don't know I mean early Death, Possessed, and Atheist don't have much in common sonically with Suffocation, Cryptopsy, and Nile for example.

True, but they still possess enough of the same qualities to exist within the same sub-genre. With the first wave of black metal bands, you can really only categorize certain early albums as bearing any semblance to what would become the 90's black metal aesthetic. The Teutonic bands gradually moved away from their chaotic, low-fi beginnings into a well produced, more technically proficient thrash sound. Celtic Frost continually re-invented itself, for better or worse, throughout the 80's. Venom tanked in both quality and street cred while Mercyful Fate was far more influential from an image and lyrical standpoint than from their musical output. Honestly, it's very difficult to slap a clear label on any of the first wave bands DURING THAT TIME because their sound really encompassed a lot of different current and future sub-genres. A truly exciting time in the evolution of the metal underground!

Pretty much this.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:40 am 
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traptunderice wrote:
RelentlessOblivion wrote:
So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave? I sort of feel like people want to discredit bands like Venom and Hellhammer because they are atypical of black metal in the modern sense. Why early death metal doesn't suffer the same problem I don't know I mean early Death, Possessed, and Atheist don't have much in common sonically with Suffocation, Cryptopsy, and Nile for example.
The creation of the actual genre transcended what came before it. You have clear predecessors historically, but the Norwegian scene transcended it in such a way that the thematic link was severed. I am hardly convinced when people tell me that they hear In the Nightside Eclipse in Sodom's Sign of Evil.

Thrash til' Deth wrote:
North From Here wrote:
Post second wave list should be interesting. Its been a while, maybe we'd even have to go to 10?

Are we doing this here or starting a new thread?
Post second wave is so vague. Like, does that include Sigh, BAN, DsO, late Limbonic Art, Prometheus, and WITTR? Like, ummm...


Maybe not Emperor, but that early Teutonic influence can be heard in the more primitive bands... and that's really the point; beyond bands like Morbid, Bathory and even early Mayhem, the lines are blurry. Nobody really called it "black metal", although the term was thrown around sparsely, due to Venom coining the phrase, just like nobody really called Death or Possessed "death metal" until a little bit later, though by the late 80s these terms were starting to be used, as was "thrash metal" (alternately, trash metal, but that was considered lame) and of course "speed metal" was used before all the rest as a kind of catch all for the more assertive styles. Prior to that, Metaldom was basically split into two groups: poseurs and non-poseurs.
Ahhh, 'twas so much simpler back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:45 am 
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RelentlessOblivion wrote:
So if "first wave black metal" isn't a thing why isn't the second wave called the first wave?


I'm basically in agreement with what others said, but about this quote: because it is a simple verbal convenience to refer them as the first and second wave, everyone knows what they mean. Some bands, Hellhammer is a good example, certainly had significant sonic influence on the development of the second wave, but influence on the Norwegian sound doesn't need to make a loosely categorized group of thrash bands with varying degrees of black metal elements 'a black metal wave' after the fact.

As to death metal, I think your examples actually help prove why death metal doesn't see the same treatment. Death itself evolves into something very recognizable in comparison to the last three bands you mentioned. I can't speak for others, but I always thought of Possessed as more a somewhat technical thrash band with death/black metal aesthetic, and Atheist was probably a direct influence on the later three. Production drastically changed the sound of death metal over the years, but the difference between first and second black metal waves was minimally about production.

I know far less about mid-late 80s thrash than early-mid 90s Norwegian black metal, but I do know the first category is way, way bigger and less discrete. The nice thing about talking about the second wave is, especially throwing out Swedish bands or Abigor when just looking at Norway, is that it is a really confined space.


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 Post subject: Re: Pick 5 First Wave Black Metal Albums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:21 am 
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Goat wrote:
None of these bands are regulars on my playlists, so this will be an informative thread. I like Bathory and Venom as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't say they're as enjoyable to listen to on a regular basis as other bands. Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate win out above other bands mentioned here for me simply because they're always fun listens.

Venom - Black Metal to this day still pumps my fucking 'nads.
The day I bought it is permanently etched in y mind: early December 1983, cold and foggy after - school - day in Santa Cruz, CA (is there any other kind of day in SC?), walk into the local record store, look around... already have Accept, Exciter, Mercyful Fate... moving alphabetically on... what's this? Venom - Black Metal, with a rather sinister looking goats head gracing the black cover... flip it around... Cronos: Rabid Captor of Bestial Malevolence... Abbadon: Barbaric Guardian to the 7 Gates of Hell... Mantas: Grand Master of Hades and Mayhem... hmmm... looks interesting. Take it to the counter whip out my twenty clams, cashier raises his eyebrows and gives me my change. Grab my purchase, hit the bus and upon reaching my dad's empty house (at work, ya know) smoke a bowl of blonde hash, full of anticipation... slap the vinyl on to the turntable (system consisted of Technics SL-221 turntable, pioneer SX-1250 receiver and HPM-100 speakers, that era of stereo equipment cannot be beat), strategically placed in a triangular position between which i sat indian style on the ground... a dragon's hiss... I recall feeling the bass not only in my gut, but in my bone marrow, diving up and down like some weird roller coaster... the chainsaw guitar possessing a rather distinctly slithery, serpent-like slinkiness.. the voice that of somebody on fire whilst howling in the falling rain... the skinswork, nothing special but doing it's job... yeah, this is for me. A few days later, I traded my Kill 'em All album for Welcome to Hell from some other dirthead... it was a no-brainer. Long story short Black Metal will most likely be in my playlist 'til I die.

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