Metal Reviews

This is absolutely correct. The point that many atheists, and Dawkins especially, seem to miss is that religion is based on faith, not logic and emprical evidence. Its not even like all religious people are Biblical literalists (though obviously there are some). Since the entire point of religion is to have faith, it seems silly to me to attack it on the point that it requires faith- its like saying that science is stupid because it requires logic and empirical evidence. More than anything though, nothing annoys me more than people pushing their religious beliefs upon others- whether it be a Christian or an atheist. Atheists shouldn't resort to attempted conversion- I became an atheist by my own free will, based entirely on my own opinions, and I'm proud of that. Let people believe whatever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with others.

In response to Noodles cartoon: I think that it misses a point, which is that Biblical literalism is becoming less and less relevant. I know many people of different religions, but I can't think of any that believe in every word written in the Torah/Bible/Koran/Bhagavad Gita- rather, they believe in the spirit of what is presented. Not to say that there aren't people who still believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and that Jonah got swallowed by a whale and came back out and all, but it seems to have lost its mainstream acceptance (at least here in Canada).

Heatseeker: I've never read LeGuin, but I've heard lots of great things. You'll have to tell us what you think. And glad you enjoyed Storm of Swords- move onto A Feast For Crows! Nowhere near as action packed, but still very enjoyable and thematically more coherent.

The question of how to eradicate monotheistic religions with negative impacts on society is a difficult one indeed.

Having faith in something that is believable is completely different than having faith in something contradicting all logic and evidence. If Christians are going to believe in God despite empirical evidence then they should believe in Allah and Zeus for the same reasons. Or am I wrong?

I hate religion because I live within an hour of this place: http://www.creationmuseum.org/. It is a museum devoted to Creationism which draws young children in with animatronic dinosaurs and giant arks then proceeds to tell them the earth is 6000 years old and that the world's current belief in science has caused domestic violence, pornography and abortion. There is an article about it in this month's issue of Skeptic magazine in case people are more interested.

That's another way of telling the invisible pink unicorn/revolving pot/lemon tree/spaghetti monster arguments, which are pointless but indeed true. It's pointless because if it was a pink unicorn, which had a prophet called Kathaarian, who was killed by Zadok, helped write an inspirational book which happened to stay around for 2000 years, FUCK YES people would worship it. No two ways about it. They would worship it.


And Muslims do believe that the Jewish, Christian and Muslim gods are ultimately the same being, but Jews and Christians had their religion corrupted in time.

Strangely enough, orthodox Jews don't. I think we view Islam as slightly better due to the one-god thing, whilst Christians and their Jesus monkery are outright Idolators, and there's a Rabbinic law forbidding Jews to enter Churches, Cathedrals etc. This is despite Christians being 'corrupted' Jews, and Muslims being sons of Abraham.

Anyways, I can see what you're all getting at, but I disagree. There's a growing tendency in Judaism at least that I've noticed to try and explain religious things rationally. Ie, if you can show that, no, actually the age of the world really is billions of years and the lower layers of earth weren't all fucked around with during the flood, then you've got a chance.

Never read it but the Koran apparently makes mention of Jesus as a prophet. I'm pretty sure Judaism and Islam branch off from the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael respectively.

That's completely different than most Christians that get publicity. I'm not saying all Christians are morons but the ones who are most visible tend to be against science or discredit in comparison to the Bible (ie: your televangelists, Westboro type churches).

Does it seem that Atheists are more knowledgeable about different religions than religious people?

Sort of. Atheists certainly seem more willing to at least listen to the other side of things, they may laugh in mockery afterwards, but they'll at least listen for the most part. That's the main problem with the hardcore religiuos crowd, is the tendency to say I'm right, you're wrong, and close their mind off. It's a really dumb way of thinking, since the "Big 3" religions are all pretty much the same thing at the end of the day.

You're completely attacking at straws here. Nobody has defended televangelists and fire and brimstone Christians (and indeed, as others have said, Allah is the Judeo-Christian God- and inasmuch as I worship any God, I do worship Jupiter Optimus Maximus and promise him sacrifices before bowling in the hopes that I don't suck. It sometimes works). The thing thats most wrong with those types of religious people is that they try to push their shit onto other people- much like many atheists do now. It seems hypocritical, to me, that so many atheists do what they say they hate religious people for doing. But I do think that these types of religious people are the minority, and just seem more present because they're louder and more obnoxious.



Methinks you're still not quite getting what faith is. Do you not see that its entirely the point that it contradicts logic and evidence, or that at least it does not need to adhere to rational or empiricist principles? I have friends who believe in religion, or some higher power of sorts- it makes them happy and in touch with aspects of themselves, in a fundamentally good way that I in many ways cannot replicate- but I cannot believe in something without good evidence, and I value truth over happiness. There are positive aspects to religion. Who am I to tell them they're wrong? They don't ever try to convert me, why should I them?

As George Bernard Shaw said, a person happy with their religion is no different to an alcoholic happy with the bottle. I think at the end of the day religion is an unnecessary crutch to people who have been convinced that it's their only way out. Not that there aren't exceptions, or that some religious people aren't good, but the average religious person that I've met (and I live in a place full of them) are stuck-up idiots. It's like being the only sane man in an asylum, a horrible experience, and I can't help but have a measure of dislike for people like that. Everyone knows someone who is happy because of religion - so? There used to be a retarded kid living down the street from me who was happiest getting behind the wheel of his parent's car and letting the handbrake off. Luckily for him, they lived in a cul-de-sac, but sometimes things just aren't good for people.

And this defeatist crap about how atheists aren't allowed to be passionate about their lack of belief because then they're just like the religious! Bloody hell, what RUBBISH. Condescending, wanky, snooty, bullshit. There's nothing wrong with standing firmly on a side and being proud of it, and people who don't are simply bowing over backwards because they're afraid of offending the religious. It's so isolationist! Do you suggest good bands to friends, or not because you're 'pushing stuff onto other people'? Do you suggest a good film, book, etc? Or not?

OF COURSE I'm not saying any of the godless here should immediately start organising themselves and picketing the local baptist church, but please, don't treat it like having AIDS, either.

I just think that religion should be a private thing.

If someone tells you that metal sucks, even if they argue well, your reaction will probably be to defend metal and attack their taste in music. It won't be to be like "hey yeah metal does suck!, what the fuck have i been thinking!?"... except moreso because atheism and religion are mutually exclusive

And I've never really met anyone who's stuck up about their religion, but that might be because I just avoid talking to people about that sort of thing unless I know them really well.

It is my belief that it is not religion that turns people into stuck up idiots, but certainty of any type, regarding especially the God issue or in other issues that can't be proved either way. When you become so certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong and that it is your duty to force your beliefs on others, that is where the assholedom comes from. I know atheists who are stuck up idiots and atheists who aren't, and religious people who are and others who aren't.

And until you can come up with a better analogy for happiness from stupidity than driving without a handbrake, which can actively harm people, and simply being happy in belief and not forcing it on anyone else- where does the harm come from in that? Hell, it reminds me of the moral of the Mormon episode in south park: Yes, the Mormons believe in some crazy shit, but if it causes them to live happy lives and be kind to one another, who gives a shit as long as they don't? It sounds like you've had bad experiences with religious people- I'm not defending that type. But I don't think that turning to their level of behaviour is the answer.




If you can take a firm stance on the subject, and defend your right to do so, so can they. But you also waive the right to bitch when they try to force their views on you as you do to them. I am an atheist; whenever people ask me what I believe, I tell them. Hell, I was on a Jewish trip to Israel this summer filled with uber Jewish pro Israel propoganda, and I proudly stated that I'm an atheist during debates and to others on the trip.. I'm not afraid to say who I am, and I'm not saying that anyone should be. However, when I state that I'm an atheist, I expect that others will respect choice, and I can't be anything but an asshole if I don't do the same to them. My argument is not against public atheism, but against missionarism.

And really, there's a distinct difference between reccomending someone a band and going up to them, stating that their world-beliefs are wrong and that yours are right, and that if they were intelligent at all they'd believe what you believe. Particularly, since once again, this is a matter of faith! Unless they're Biblical literalists, they know that not everything they believe in makes sense already! Either way, you're just stirring up a shitstorm to no purpose. Let people make their own decisions.

I think the difference here is in how religious the opponent is. In your case, if they're not biblical literalists, then not very, and as you said, they already know how ridiculous it is. In mine, as you extrapolated, I have had, still do have, bad experiences with religious people (and when I say religious, I mean uber-religious). My parents were pretty strong, church-on-sundays, psalm-before-bed Christians when I was young, and then in my early teens they decided to convert to orthodox Judaism, which I can't recommend. The upshot? I now have a firmly-entrenched atheism which nearly tipped into full on satanism at one point - I gnash my teeth when people mention God. God, or peoples' idea of him and actions they believe to be guided by him, has been the cause of much that's worng in my life, and so you'll forgive me if I sometimes feel the need to shake a fist at people.

As I said, though, I never try to engage religious people in debate. My few Jewish friends simply can't take it (brainwashed since birth, Clockwork Orange had nothing on this). I do tend to be rather abusive sometimes, as when I was walking along and these teenagers offered me pamphlets advertising some boat race. I open it - Aarrrgh! Christians! Jesus loves me! Anyone who's been here a while knows I have a shitty temper, not helped by my boozing (although both are pretty much controlled now, as people have probably noticed recently) and so let's just say I gave them what for.

Sorry to unleash the ol' life story, but it's a painful topic, and the debater in me is never quiet. It's little different from arguing with right-wingers, in a lot of ways... Get your way of thinking, though.

I love how Zad goes every time "ok ok I get where you're coming from" but can't hold it 5 mins later and goes "BRAAAWWRR I'M THE DEICIDE"

I haven't had any bad experiences about religion but I can imagine it must suck since I know how conservative fuckheads can get, one of them is our prime minister.

The passivity in my atheism comes from realizing after years of scientific experiment and research that people are usually idiots (religious or not) and I'm ok as long as they don't step on my tail.

Well, I just finished The Hobbit yesterday, and I must say it was quite good. I'm in the middle of chapter 2 on the Fellowship now.

But we have the right to loudly and passionately criticize religion because, hell, we're right, and they're moronic fucknuts.

Brahm's got it exactly right; certainty is what corrupts, not religion. I don't understand why people can't accept that we simply don't know whether God exists or not--Christian, atheist, or whatever.

There's a special term for people who don't know - agnostics. They're basically atheists without the courage of their convictions.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUUUUUUCK!!!

i went to fnac to pick up ASOIAF 2 and they told me that they didn't even receive a reply to the order they placed over 2 months ago!! WHY DIDN'T THEY TELL ME NO ONE EVEN REPLIED?!

my aunt went to the USA and picked up ASOIAF 3 for me, had i known i'd have asked for 2 as well!

sure i picked up Dune on my trip there, but FFS, i was counting on ASOIAF 2 and 3 to read on the cruise i'm going on on the 12th!

Stephen R. Donaldson- Lord Foul's Bane

Az: Just order it off amazon.

i don't have a credit card, and i don't want to ask my uncle to use his because he won't STFU (he's a nice guy, he just can't STFU, so i ask as little as i can from him).

anyway, the Appendixes in Dune only show the setting for the story, right? can i read it before starting the book proper?