Metal Reviews

Newest and Best Metal Reviews!
FAQ :: Search :: Members :: Groups :: Register
Login
It is currently Mon Jun 09, 2025 5:05 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4021 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87 ... 202  Next   
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:04 am 
Offline
Ist Krieg
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:15 pm
Posts: 13700
Location: Cincinnati OH
Brahm_K wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Brahm_K wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Sasheron wrote:
Finally have enough time to read Plato's Republic.
Every time I try to read Plato, I just become frustrated and stop reading it several times before I finally finish it.


Have you tried reading some of his shorter, more ethically themed dialogues? The Apology in particular is readable and very entertaining, as well as thought provoking.
I've finished Euthyphro and The Death of Socrates and have stalled reading Symposium, The Republic, Phaedo and Crito. I prefer Epictetus or Aristotle more than Plato.


May I ask what do you find so frustrating about him, in comparison to Aristotle or the Stoics?
Mainly the fact that its in a dialogue format while Aristotle lays everything so systematic and organized and the Stoics, that I've read, tend to just lay things out in proverbs or stories. I've tackled any Plato in the past six months so it may be different now but pulling info out of the dialogues was just so frustrating.

Plato's Phaedo wrote:
‘Well now, with regard to the instances in the logs, and in general, the equals we mentioned just now, are we affected in some way as this: do they seem to us to be equal in the same way as what it is itself? Do they fall short of it at all in being like the equal, or not?’
‘Very far short of it.’
‘Then whenever anyone, on seeing a thing, thinks to himself, “this thing that I now see seeks to be like another of the things that are, but falls short, and cannot be like that object: it is inferior”, do we agree that the man who thinks this must previously have known the object he says it resembles but falls short of?’
‘He must.’
‘Now then, have we ourselves been affected in just this way, or not, with regard to the equals, and the equal itself?’
‘Indeed we have.’
‘Then we must previously have known the equal, before that time when we first, on seeing the equals, thought that all of them were striving to be like the equal but fell short of it.’
Parts like this drive me bonkers because it actually means something but I don't know what that is.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:43 am 
Offline
Metal King

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 1212
Image

Fuck this series. Worst series I've ever read. George R. R. Martin is an asshole!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:43 am 
Offline
Metal Fighter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:38 am
Posts: 349
Location: Brisbane, Whale's Mouth
I'll try to do my best and shed some light on this, but I also find the dialogue form frustrating. I forgot which book had Socrate's arguments for the immortality of the soul, so I'm going to include that here to show how Plato's ideas fit together. This is one of Plato's arguments for the reality of the forms and perhaps the immortality of the soul. This is an argument from previous knowledge of the forms OR for existence of the forms. I've taken this apart, so you should be able to place it.

Plato's Phaedo wrote:
‘Well now, with regard to the instances in the logs, and in general, the equals we mentioned just now, are we affected in some way as this: do they seem to us to be equal in the same way as what it is itself? Do they fall short of it at all in being like the equal, or not?’


Plato is discussing the difference between something being exactly similar to something (ie identical twins or two identical cups, are exactly similar in structure but are differentiated by their spatial location) and something that is the same as itself. Say, I have two identical apples in two different spatial locations, apple A and apple B. Is apple A apple B? No. Hence they are not entirely equal.

"We know no two physical things to be entirely equal"

Plato's Phaedo wrote:
‘Then whenever anyone, on seeing a thing, thinks to himself, “this thing that I now see seeks to be like another of the things that are, but falls short, and cannot be like that object: it is inferior”, do we agree that the man who thinks this must previously have known the object he says it resembles but falls short of?’

‘Now then, have we ourselves been affected in just this way, or not, with regard to the equals, and the equal itself?’
‘Indeed we have.’
‘Then we must previously have known the equal, before that time when we first, on seeing the equals, thought that all of them were striving to be like the equal but fell short of it.’


He is saying that we have a concept of perfect versions of real-life objects, but know them to fall short of the mark of the perfect objects, therefore we must have known what the perfect object was like before. There are no perfect objects on this level of reality, so our souls, being the higher part of ourselves, must have at some point had contact with forms, which would exist in a higher reality than physical bodies.

"There are no equal things, but we know that the concept of equal exists. We must have had contact with it previously to know about it. The perfect equal is the form of equal. Forms exist in a higher plane of existence. Our souls exist in a higher plane of existence. Therefore, our souls must have come in contact with the forms prior to our birth."

I hope this clears things up a bit. You really have to read it in context of the rest of the writings. I personally think Aristotle, Epicurus and Epictetus make a lot more sense than Plato. My own personal ethics are a patchwork of the bits of their ethics that I like and their thought is often a lot more rigorous than that of Plato.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:11 pm 
Offline
Ist Krieg
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:15 pm
Posts: 13700
Location: Cincinnati OH
Thanks. Now that you explained what he was going for it makes sense. The good thing is that I understand all his theories when they are outside of his writings but trying to pull them from the text is when my brain begins to hemorrhage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:46 pm 
Offline
Karma Whore
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm
Posts: 3561
I actually really like the presentation of Plato's theories as dialogue form. They do require a bit more critical analysis than say, Aristotle, of whom we're reading lecture notes, but I think that philosophy is well attuned to discussion, and therefore a dialogue is able to better present and deal with counter-arguments and really get to the crux of the matter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:48 pm 
Offline
MetalReviews Staff
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:24 am
Posts: 5454
Location: Oslo - Norway
Im a tolkien freak

The children of hùrin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:49 pm 
Offline
Ist Krieg
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:26 pm
Posts: 6810
Location: lolchair
Bukowski - Ham on Rye


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:09 pm 
Offline
Karma Whore
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 3207
Afro Lint wrote:
Image

Fuck this series. Worst series I've ever read. George R. R. Martin is an asshole!


:unsure:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:32 pm 
Offline
Karma Whore
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm
Posts: 3561
Fingon wrote:
Afro Lint wrote:
Image

Fuck this series. Worst series I've ever read. George R. R. Martin is an asshole!


:unsure:


:sad:

Best. Series. Ever.

I can't see the image, but I assume you just got to a certain scene in the middle of A Storm of Swords?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:19 am 
Offline
Metal King

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 1212
Brahm_K wrote:
Fingon wrote:
Afro Lint wrote:
Image

Fuck this series. Worst series I've ever read. George R. R. Martin is an asshole!


:unsure:


:sad:

Best. Series. Ever.

I can't see the image, but I assume you just got to a certain scene in the middle of A Storm of Swords?

Yeah, the image has farted out on me, but I'm now a little bit into A Feast For Crows. And yes, A Storm Of Swords was ridiculous, especially that...event! Haha. I was fucking pissed! I love the series, in all honesty, but I also hate it with a passion. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:34 am 
Offline
Jeg lever med min foreldre

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:26 pm
Posts: 5736
Location: São Paulo and Lisboa
i'm almost through with A Storm of Swords and so far it's been awesome, the books only got better after the the first one. i can't wait to get my hands on Feast.

_________________
noodles wrote:
live to crush


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:00 am 
Offline
Metal King

Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 1212
Azrael wrote:
i'm almost through with A Storm of Swords and so far it's been awesome, the books only got better after the the first one. i can't wait to get my hands on Feast.

Did you...um...get to..."the chapter?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:31 am 
Offline
Metal Fighter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:38 am
Posts: 349
Location: Brisbane, Whale's Mouth
Brahm_K wrote:
I actually really like the presentation of Plato's theories as dialogue form. They do require a bit more critical analysis than say, Aristotle, of whom we're reading lecture notes, but I think that philosophy is well attuned to discussion, and therefore a dialogue is able to better present and deal with counter-arguments and really get to the crux of the matter.


I'd like it if there weren't any other convenient ways to present arguments and counter-arguments, and if Plato's latter works actually had any arguing going on instead of everyone agreeing and praising each other. So... many... strawmen...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:12 am 
Offline
Jeg lever med min foreldre

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:26 pm
Posts: 5736
Location: São Paulo and Lisboa
i'm at page 900 and something, Sansa is with Petyr Baelish as they arrive at his old home on the fingers.

if the best/worst is yet to come, don't tell me :P

_________________
noodles wrote:
live to crush


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:58 pm 
Offline
Ist Krieg
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:40 am
Posts: 13758
Location: Canada
finished kurt vonnegut - god bless you mr rosewater, now reading bluebird by same guy. or bluebeard. something along those lines.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:54 pm 
Offline
Metal King
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:25 am
Posts: 928
Location: Serres [Greece]
I'm currently reading Terry Pratchett's Night Watch. This is a really enjoyable book. Different that the average Pratchett book as it is not too funny and it does not really try to be funny. But it has a really nice story and it never gets boring. I've read more than a dozen of his books and I'd say this is one of his top 5 according to me. Still 80 pages to the end though, so this can go either way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:19 pm 
Offline
Karma Whore
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm
Posts: 3561
Sasheron wrote:
Brahm_K wrote:
I actually really like the presentation of Plato's theories as dialogue form. They do require a bit more critical analysis than say, Aristotle, of whom we're reading lecture notes, but I think that philosophy is well attuned to discussion, and therefore a dialogue is able to better present and deal with counter-arguments and really get to the crux of the matter.


I'd like it if there weren't any other convenient ways to present arguments and counter-arguments, and if Plato's latter works actually had any arguing going on instead of everyone agreeing and praising each other. So... many... strawmen...


Its true enough that Plato does sometimes resort to strawmen in order to prove his points- but its equally true that Plato can be critical about his own ideas and that he uses his dialogues to point out criticisms of his theories. The best example of this is the Parmenides, wherein Plato essentially admits that he doesn't know how his Forms interact into the real world. This is a common theme, particularly in the Socratic dialogues, where Plato disproves the definition of ethical concepts but is unable to come up with a solution, and freely admits it. Similarly, his Laws are a direct response to the Republic, an acknowledgment that the Republic, while an ideal state, is impossible. I think this capacity for self criticism is one of Plato's virtues (and one that can make him more interesting to read than, say, Aristotle), and that the dialogue form is particularly well suited to Plato's philosophy.

Quote:
i'm at page 900 and something, Sansa is with Petyr Baelish as they arrive at his old home on the fingers.

if the best/worst is yet to come, don't tell me


Oh, you've got past the event. Still, you have some very fun stuff ahead of you...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:53 pm 
Offline
Ist Krieg
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:40 am
Posts: 13758
Location: Canada
Antonakis wrote:
I'm currently reading Terry Pratchett's Night Watch. This is a really enjoyable book. Different that the average Pratchett book as it is not too funny and it does not really try to be funny. But it has a really nice story and it never gets boring. I've read more than a dozen of his books and I'd say this is one of his top 5 according to me. Still 80 pages to the end though, so this can go either way.

I liked that book a lot too. I think on average I like later Discworld stuff more than earlier :X


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:57 am 
Offline
MetalReviews Staff
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 29891
Location: UK
Anyone read his latest yet? It's called 'Making Money' and has the guy from the Ankh-Mopork one where he sorts out the postal service...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:37 am 
Offline
Jeg lever med min foreldre

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:26 pm
Posts: 5736
Location: São Paulo and Lisboa
Zad wrote:
Anyone read his latest yet? It's called 'Making Money' and has the guy from the Ankh-Mopork one where he sorts out the postal service...


that would be "Going Postal". i only read 2 discworld books, that and "feet of clay". talk about FoC, what do you think of it? i read it once when i was 16 and i barely remember any of it, think it's worth re-reading?

_________________
noodles wrote:
live to crush


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4021 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87 ... 202  Next   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group