Metal Reviews

Those are exceptions, and at any rate, they are actual MEMBERS of the band, and obviously a drummer is responsible (most of the time) for the drumwork, but they are not PRODUCERS.
Usually, the songwriters are the ones that pen the lyrics and the music.

Naming a few ARTISTS that actually happen to produce their records as well, does not mean production = songwriting.
Talk about comprehension problems.

From good ol' Wiki:

Record producer:



Songwriter:



Big distinction there, champ.

Haha, you'd rather listen to Celine Dion than fucking Motorhead... get lost.

Oh shit son wikipedia!?

Yeah, I'm too lazy to look further, but the point stands.
Production does not equal songwriting, two completely different aspects that just happen to be shared by some individuals, i.e the songwriter also produces the album, especially in metal, where funds / creative license, etc. are an issue.

I know there's a difference between songwriters and producers but I don't think you can judge a song based only on its melody and lyrics. Just like a shitty drummer will make a whole band and thus the song sound shitty, a shitty producer will make the whole band sound shitty and thus the song sound shitty.

So I guess I'm not saying that production and songwriting are the same thing, but production is integral to how the songwriting is perceived, especially in metal where there's usually only one or two performances of a certain song available.

You are really out of your league. Andy LaRoche is a producer for about a half dozen bands, including Morifade, Dreamland and I believe Axenstar. All of those bands are clearly being influenced by his direction in the songwriting based on their similarity of the bands and the differences between having him and not. This is one example we could make out of hundreds, so don't act like he is the only one. I don't understand why you claim he produces only his own bands, he doesn't.

So nearly every band in metal is an exception? Do you want a far more comprehensive list of every metal album I have and how people that wrote material did not get a credit vs. the ones where everyone that did write gets credit, which is the issue here, not that they were or were not producers. Producers don't get "extra credit" because they aren't band members. I don't see how you steered the fact that Cliff's basslines did not get him credit for the song into he wasn't the producer. Whether or not someone is a band member or a producer makes no bearing on whether or not they would receive credit. Go read some books about the making of albums and you will clearly see what happens in reality, and not what is printed in the liner notes and that is misconstrued into something that isn't true.

That is beside the point. Producers get a 2-3% songwriting royalty on top of their normal fee for doing the record. I wonder why that is.

That wikipedia article is shit, a producer is not the studio manager. go read a few books with some credibility, some interviews with actual producers and fuck, call up lord tim or someone that has produced dozens of records (other than his own) and ask him if they had an impact or influence in the songwriting.


The Producer and production has a massive impact on the final effort and they contribute heavily to the songwriting process, even if they don't write a single note. I still fail to see how this is even arguable.

I'll send an e-mail to Lemmy telling him that you think he should fuck off if he likes any pop music. I don't think he'd react well to that, but I don't imagine he sits around listening to old demos of himself either.

I suppose it ultimately depends on the genre, and on your definitions of what a 'shitty sound' is. Interesting that all your examples there are of Power Metal bands, where a bad production can spoil the enjoyment of the songs, which isn't the case to as large a degree with grind, death or black.

Yeah death and black metal sound like shit by default so that stuff doesn't have too far downhill to go.

Sound like awesome, you mean.

Let's get back to Dream Evil, before this thread turns into a total shit.

But this conversation is more interesting

Adveser wrote:


Does he write their material?
If so, than he is a partial songwriter, if not, he is a producer.
Simple.

Adveser wrote:


Err, where did I make that claim?
Right, I didn't... what was that about reading comprehension?

Adveser wrote:


Did anyone say they were?


Adveser wrote:


No.

Adveser wrote:


No, it's not.
You stated



I say, that is a false claim.

Adveser wrote:


No, they don't get "credit" because they didn't WRITE THE SONG.
Why is this hard?

Adveser wrote:


I'll attempt a rebuttal to this strange non-sequitur...
The basslines are not the SONG... if the riff was written by Hammet, than all Burton really did was follow along.
If Burton composed the riffs, he wrote the song, and would certainly be credited as such.

Adveser wrote:


As a songwriter or a producer?
I guess that would depend on whether that person penned the lyrics, composed the music etc.
Obviously one doesn't have to be a band member to pen a song, outsiders contribute their writing all the time, that still makes them a songwriter as opposed to a producer (unless of course the guest writer just so happens to be the producer) what exactly is your point?

Adveser wrote:


2%-3% does't sound like production and songwriting are the same thing at all... this just proves my point; if production IS songwriting, why such a negligible cut?

Adveser wrote:


True.

Adveser wrote:


That's why they are called "producers" and not "songwriters".
They contribute to the "process", which could mean a lot of things, but what it doesn't mean is "they wrote the fucking song".


Adveser wrote:


see above.

Adveser wrote:


Yeah, you do that; let me know how it works out for you.

Adveser wrote:


I imagine he listens to a lot of stuff from the 50's and 60's, mainly good old fashioned Rock and Roll, which, incidentally isn't really slickly polished to a mirror like glow in terms of production.

Anyway, who really gives a damn?

The songwriting is like any raw material, be it words, music, whatever; the production is how it is presented.
Two seperate aspects that work together towards the end result.

Sorry, I just can't make this any clearer, because one helps compose a song does not mean they are included in the credits. You are just wrong about that. You just said the opposite of what I said on every rebuttal and pretended the original statement was never made. Do some research and get back to me on this topic.

3% makes a producer far more money than any musician because they can do 4 albums a year and don't split the money with anyone else and as mentioned they get their usual fee in addition to that. Yeah how negligible. The royalty is equal to what each memeber would receive and that assumes they have no stake in the songwriting. Things are not done the way you think they are done in your mind. Slipknot decided that everyone wrote every song regardless of the circumstances to avoid any issues.

Actually lets approach this a different way, tell me exactly how royalties are distributed on a record since you are so knowledgeable about this subject and tell me exactly why a producer that could very well claim a writing credit would choose not to.

Fuck it, man... you really just don't get it, and I really don't care enough about this nonsense to waste anymore time on it.
You said production IS songwriting, and that is pure grade-A dyed in the wool bullshit.
I could give half a scurvy rat's ass about how the royalties are dispersed.

It's like you have a house... there are architects, carpenters, electricians, etc. that all come together to design and build it.
Now, somewhere along the line, an electrician may consult with the carpenters as to where they are planning on placing electrical fixtures, ceiling lamps, etc... they may even offer their own advice on these things. they'll probably be in contact over scheduling and so forth. Now, both have their own unique seperate tasks to do in order for the house to be completed, both have interacted with each other, made decisions based on the other's input, blueprints, and so on... does that mean that an electrician is a carpenter? Or say you have an individual that can perform both the wiring and the building, is electrical wiring all of a sudden carpentry?
No.

New Dream Evil is catchy and entertaining, I like it and I like it more than United.

This discussion is pretty epic considering it's essentially about the definition of the word "producer".

Youre not making any sense Adveser, according to you:

Producer = Songwritting

so

Good Producer = Good Songwritting

So how can you say that you rather listen to "B-grade songs with A++ production over A-grade songs with B=class production", if production and songwritting are the same, wouldnt a B grade song be automatically be a B-grade production?, because it seems to me from that sentence that youre refering to production as a measure of song quality not songwritting.

Checkmate

This.

Yeah, back to Dream Evil boys and girls