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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:59 am 
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Ist Krieg
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idk any time I've gotten a good brootal distorted sound out of a guitar even major and minor chords sound pretty terrifying.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:05 am 
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Einherjar

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Yeah Noodles, same here. any chord I try sounds good if not better than it does acoustically

I mean Alex Lifeson uses the most insane chords imaginable and he had an insanely thin distorted and overdriven sound from P/G to Roll the Bones. I'm just not buying that distortion makes non-power chords sound dissonant.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:57 am 
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Jeg lever med min foreldre
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Adveser wrote:
emperorblackdoom wrote:
Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
The only way out of this is to use complex phrasing with complicated chords.


And then you realise you are a boring prog/power band more concerned with chord names than the emotional impact oft he music.


Pshhh, ready a theory book already.


The irony is that Power Metal is infamous for it's lack of chord variety. It's a lead instrument genre with a dominant singer/songwriter normally writing a good deal of the material, so it's forgivable. It's about layers of melody. Prog is about layers of harmony and it is as simple as that. That is why people get confused about the genres. Talk about not knowing a genre and making dumb comments about it.


Lead melodies? Like arpeggiated chord sequences?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:06 am 
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Jeg lever med min foreldre
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Adveser wrote:
Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
The only way out of this is to use complex phrasing with complicated chords.


And then you realise you are a boring prog/power band more concerned with chord names than the emotional impact oft he music.


Uhh no. Go play some Rush songs using nothing but Power Chords and get back to me on whether or not it makes a difference. Using complex chords is what makes the emotional impact happen. How do you make a power chord or a tri-tone sound "dreary" for example? You don't you use a chord that sounds that way.

I want music that sounds new, not the same old shit and it ain't happenin' with power chords in E minor. People recycle riffs because they don't have anything to say. They want the glory and want to do none of the work to get it.

Comments like this can't possibly be coming from people with functional hearing.


How to make a power chord sound dreary? Easy, go from an E power chord up to an F or A# power chord. You don't need a complex chord, just an out of key interval.

And a tri-tone isn't a chord, it's an interval, so I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

And unlike you I don't claim to be an expert on music theory, this shit can be picked up by reading 'Music theory for dummies' :rolleyes:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:09 am 
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Jeg lever med min foreldre
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Adveser wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Distortion + upper extensions = yuck

That's why chords in Metal are kept fairly simple. The most you'll get is either a 7th or 9th. The more complicated chords are usually played arpeggiated, or on keyboards or whatever.


That's why you, you know, pick softly and let the amps do the work. You buy sharper picks or use the right tone woods for a hard attack. If bands are using distortion as an excuse it's a pathetic one.


Holy shit man, it doesn't fucking matter what picks you use, a real artist could pick up any guitar and pick and make it sound good.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:41 am 
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Einherjar

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Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
The only way out of this is to use complex phrasing with complicated chords.


And then you realise you are a boring prog/power band more concerned with chord names than the emotional impact oft he music.


Uhh no. Go play some Rush songs using nothing but Power Chords and get back to me on whether or not it makes a difference. Using complex chords is what makes the emotional impact happen. How do you make a power chord or a tri-tone sound "dreary" for example? You don't you use a chord that sounds that way.

I want music that sounds new, not the same old shit and it ain't happenin' with power chords in E minor. People recycle riffs because they don't have anything to say. They want the glory and want to do none of the work to get it.

Comments like this can't possibly be coming from people with functional hearing.


How to make a power chord sound dreary? Easy, go from an E power chord up to an F or A# power chord. You don't need a complex chord, just an out of key interval.

And a tri-tone isn't a chord, it's an interval, so I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

And unlike you I don't claim to be an expert on music theory, this shit can be picked up by reading 'Music theory for dummies' :rolleyes:




I meant Triad, which should have been fairly obvious, but it's my mistake, not anyone else's to figure out. So I apologize for not getting the word right.

I don't think you understand what I am saying either. The note or chord should have it's character independent of everything else. Pitch is not the same as, let's call it "note" since we don't really have a word for that. Playing off key fundamental notes for the purpose of creating mood or tone is ridiculously out of whack. Red and Yellow make Orange, not red and yellow swirl when mixed together, just like notes. and none of this has anything to do with pitch. Pitch is relative. Notes are not relative whatsoever.

I don't claim to be an expert. I claim to be proficient for the genre (rock) I play in. A buddy gave me one of his 3rd year books from when he was going for his BM degree. None of us know anything, not even Dream Theater except maybe Jordan.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:46 am 
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Einherjar

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Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Distortion + upper extensions = yuck

That's why chords in Metal are kept fairly simple. The most you'll get is either a 7th or 9th. The more complicated chords are usually played arpeggiated, or on keyboards or whatever.


That's why you, you know, pick softly and let the amps do the work. You buy sharper picks or use the right tone woods for a hard attack. If bands are using distortion as an excuse it's a pathetic one.


Holy shit man, it doesn't fucking matter what picks you use, a real artist could pick up any guitar and pick and make it sound good.


Nope. That's why the pick companies made different tip shapes because it affects the attack. If you want a dull attack you use fat softer picks, if you want a razor sharp attack you use sharp picks like certain Jazz III's all the metal and shredders use.

A real artist knows his equipment matters.

Dude seriously. You basically just insinuated that a real artist can make a rosewood fingerboard sound like a Maple one, or a Fender sound like a Les Paul. Come on now, really?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:45 am 
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Metal King
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Dream On: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txlXcJDtDwM
Don't Close Your Eyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcEu47mR43U

I know there are tons of other, similar piano intros.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:46 am 
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Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Distortion + upper extensions = yuck

That's why chords in Metal are kept fairly simple. The most you'll get is either a 7th or 9th. The more complicated chords are usually played arpeggiated, or on keyboards or whatever.


That's why you, you know, pick softly and let the amps do the work. You buy sharper picks or use the right tone woods for a hard attack. If bands are using distortion as an excuse it's a pathetic one.


Holy shit man, it doesn't fucking matter what picks you use, a real artist could pick up any guitar and pick and make it sound good.

:lol:

Not a guitarist, I hope. Picks matter. A lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:26 am 
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Jeg lever med min foreldre
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Location: Upon the high horse of self-destruction
Adveser wrote:
Rhys wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Distortion + upper extensions = yuck

That's why chords in Metal are kept fairly simple. The most you'll get is either a 7th or 9th. The more complicated chords are usually played arpeggiated, or on keyboards or whatever.


That's why you, you know, pick softly and let the amps do the work. You buy sharper picks or use the right tone woods for a hard attack. If bands are using distortion as an excuse it's a pathetic one.


Holy shit man, it doesn't fucking matter what picks you use, a real artist could pick up any guitar and pick and make it sound good.


Nope. That's why the pick companies made different tip shapes because it affects the attack. If you want a dull attack you use fat softer picks, if you want a razor sharp attack you use sharp picks like certain Jazz III's all the metal and shredders use.

A real artist knows his equipment matters.

Dude seriously. You basically just insinuated that a real artist can make a rosewood fingerboard sound like a Maple one, or a Fender sound like a Les Paul. Come on now, really?


No that's not what I insinuated at all. A guitarist can't make a rosewood fingerboard sound like a maple one, but it doesn't really matter. Only sound nerds who want to give Rush fellatio care about that kind of shit.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:30 am 
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Ist Krieg
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Adveser wrote:
Yeah Noodles, same here. any chord I try sounds good if not better than it does acoustically

I mean Alex Lifeson uses the most insane chords imaginable and he had an insanely thin distorted and overdriven sound from P/G to Roll the Bones. I'm just not buying that distortion makes non-power chords sound dissonant.


Rush isn't Metal, dude. The distortion used on any given Rush track is nothing compared to something from Aborted. Using big weird fully-voiced jazz chords with Death Metal levels of distortion would be a waste of time, because that much distortion would kill all the things that make that chord sound good. It would actually sound pretty ugly.

...but if you're aiming for ugly, then hell yeah, go for it. It works for Gaza, Converge, and Deathspell Omega.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:06 am 
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Ist Krieg
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I have never heard anyone disagree about this lol

I used google and found some sciency sounding stuff on the topic

Quote:
"Even normally consonant major and minor chords can sound dissonant and unstable when distortion is introduced. This is because they contain the interval of a third which, although consonant, is classed as an imperfect consonance. That is, it contains elements of dissonance due to certain overtones within each note's respective overtone series forming dissonant intervals with each other. Normally such clashes, which are barely audible, are a desirable feature, serving, as they do, to subtly colour the interval and impart such subjective qualities as sweetness, joy, sadness, etc. normally associated with major and minor chords.

Introducing distortion to the notes of such intervals, however, causes drastic modifications to the relative intensities of each note's overtone series, which combine by non-linear intermodulation to form unpredictable sum and difference frequencies, resulting in an increased and often unacceptable level of dissonance."


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Einherjar

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Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Yeah Noodles, same here. any chord I try sounds good if not better than it does acoustically

I mean Alex Lifeson uses the most insane chords imaginable and he had an insanely thin distorted and overdriven sound from P/G to Roll the Bones. I'm just not buying that distortion makes non-power chords sound dissonant.


Rush isn't Metal, dude. The distortion used on any given Rush track is nothing compared to something from Aborted. Using big weird fully-voiced jazz chords with Death Metal levels of distortion would be a waste of time, because that much distortion would kill all the things that make that chord sound good. It would actually sound pretty ugly.

...but if you're aiming for ugly, then hell yeah, go for it. It works for Gaza, Converge, and Deathspell Omega.


Uhh, go listen to Middletown Dreams and get back to me on that. The chords are not "heavy" but they are extremely distorted. They go to 11.

That is why me and apparently Alex Lifeson pick softly. It creates much less oscillations and distortion in the actual sound waves and keeps the volume on the strings very consistent. To me, A fatter string at the same tension should vibrate with the same string excursion as the lighter one.

You guys are aware that you can bend unwanted oscillations (notes beating together) out of a chord right? AC/DC do this selectively at times even with standard chords.

That kind of technique is so advanced it is practically impossible to use for most. In fact I have found that it is almost never discussed since it is something you can't teach. You can't teach someone how to hear notes, you can only tell them what sort of mood or feeling a note or chord has and hope they can hear it. This is why Alex is the guitarist I think has the most technical ability out of anyone ever. Bar None. I don't know if Yngwie does this or not, but a scalloped neck is ideal for this situation.

It really makes no difference what the pitch is on notes that are not the fundamental of the chord since they doing nothing but adding their individual color to the note.

These colors are like light. you can mix and match by bending pitch to get the exact color you want to. an F# that is a bit flat sounds a lot like an F#, but just a little bit like an F too. The nasty sounding oscillation that would occur would in turn cancel out another nasty oscillation.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Einherjar

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I would also quickly add that there is not a single chord or unison that uses the modern even temperament system that is consonant in the strictest sense.

Those two terms are not absolute. They are opinion based. They can not "be" either, they have to be "considered"

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Einherjar

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Wow. It just gets better.



:lol:




Carry on.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Metal Fighter

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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
Iron Maiden - Infinite Dreams / Papa Roach - Last Resort


Shouldn't it be Hallowed Be Thy Name that got ripped off by Papa Roach. It's closely more similar than Infinite Dreams.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Einherjar

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doublewhat wrote:
GeneralDiomedes wrote:
Iron Maiden - Infinite Dreams / Papa Roach - Last Resort


Shouldn't it be Hallowed Be Thy Name that got ripped off by Papa Roach. It's closely more similar than Infinite Dreams.


I thought it was Ghengis Khan?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:47 am 
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Jeg lever med min foreldre
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Location: Upon the high horse of self-destruction
Adveser wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Yeah Noodles, same here. any chord I try sounds good if not better than it does acoustically

I mean Alex Lifeson uses the most insane chords imaginable and he had an insanely thin distorted and overdriven sound from P/G to Roll the Bones. I'm just not buying that distortion makes non-power chords sound dissonant.


Rush isn't Metal, dude. The distortion used on any given Rush track is nothing compared to something from Aborted. Using big weird fully-voiced jazz chords with Death Metal levels of distortion would be a waste of time, because that much distortion would kill all the things that make that chord sound good. It would actually sound pretty ugly.

...but if you're aiming for ugly, then hell yeah, go for it. It works for Gaza, Converge, and Deathspell Omega.


Uhh, go listen to Middletown Dreams and get back to me on that. The chords are not "heavy" but they are extremely distorted. They go to 11.

That is why me and apparently Alex Lifeson pick softly. It creates much less oscillations and distortion in the actual sound waves and keeps the volume on the strings very consistent. To me, A fatter string at the same tension should vibrate with the same string excursion as the lighter one.

You guys are aware that you can bend unwanted oscillations (notes beating together) out of a chord right? AC/DC do this selectively at times even with standard chords.

That kind of technique is so advanced it is practically impossible to use for most. In fact I have found that it is almost never discussed since it is something you can't teach. You can't teach someone how to hear notes, you can only tell them what sort of mood or feeling a note or chord has and hope they can hear it. This is why Alex is the guitarist I think has the most technical ability out of anyone ever. Bar None. I don't know if Yngwie does this or not, but a scalloped neck is ideal for this situation.

It really makes no difference what the pitch is on notes that are not the fundamental of the chord since they doing nothing but adding their individual color to the note.

These colors are like light. you can mix and match by bending pitch to get the exact color you want to. an F# that is a bit flat sounds a lot like an F#, but just a little bit like an F too. The nasty sounding oscillation that would occur would in turn cancel out another nasty oscillation.


... :huh:


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