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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:50 am 
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Ist Krieg
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
America needs to succumb to the EU- but a new EU, a fully social democrat one based on the progressive ideals of Scandinavia and the like. Europe is the only way forward, it will be the basis for the future. The US is fucked, it will either fall to revolution or economic supplanting by the EU.

Sorry, I'm quite drunk and being a bit too idealistic. Part of it has to do with being recently officially inducted into the SNP. Independence! Europe! Social Democracy! YAAALDIII!


:lol:
Are you for real?
I'm not interested in the drunken ramblings of a US citizen from Switzerland that mistakes himself for a Scotsman.


Europe has a very, very long history of not having it's shit together at all, so, I think we'll pass, 'mkay?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:11 am 
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Yeah, fear not the Fridgemeister, America won't 'fall to revolution' any time soon, and big-state social democracy has had its day - but America is certainly going to have to make swingeing spending cuts soon. And I like how the Scottish Nats have 'induction ceremonies'. Nutters. :P

Trapt, you have to admit that it doesn't look good for the Socialist International that, whether the regimes in question are socialist or not, they still tolerate such massive abuses of human rights by their members. Particularly shameful for the schziophrenic terrorist-freeing and torture-allowing scum in the Labour party that they haven't spoken up against Mubarak due to this connection. Not to sound smug or anything, but it speaks volumes that Liberal International are standing by the people on this one.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Goat wrote:
Yeah, fear not the Fridgemeister, America won't 'fall to revolution' any time soon, and big-state social democracy has had its day - but America is certainly going to have to make swingeing spending cuts soon. And I like how the Scottish Nats have 'induction ceremonies'. Nutters. :P


If by "ceremony" you mean "email informing me of my attained membership", then yes. I am looking forward to the session meetings though, apparently everyone sings Scots Wha Hae at the end of them. Hm.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:10 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
I loved the interaction between Buckley and Gore Vidal. So classy.

Johnson is anti-war, pro-immigration and pro-choice so while intelligent he is definitely not electable the way Republicans act.


Vidal had it coming to him, now didn't he?
Why do liberals always and I mean always resort to name calling in lieu of an argument? "Nazi! Racist! Squaaawkkk, whistle squaawk!"
You guys need some new material, seriously.
And when their targets respond in kind, they get all indignant.
Thats the problem with you leftys; you can dish it out, but ya can't take it.

As for Johnson's electability; don't be surprised.
The RINOs currently selling us out are being exposed more and more, and their days are numbered.
Vidal is kinda a loon but when someone starts attacking you for being a homosexual I would get pissed to. The problem with mainstream politics is the name calling and the democrats are unwilling to take the Republicans to task on a legitimate issue because they would have to expose themselves as hypocrites. I'm the actual Left and I'd like to think I can dish it out as much as I can take it. It's what causes me so many problems in this damn thread.

No matter how much Republicans are exposed when people are simply opposed to Obama without concern for the issues, it doesn't matter if it's a libertarian or a republican as long as it's not him. I just want people to honestly engage the issues but it digresses into a shitstorm of name calling where you can trick people into looking like idiots because they don't know what the fuck they are talking about (Old news but classic; the shit doesn't even need to be edited: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448). People like Palin ffs; I honestly hope it's because they blindly hate Obama and it's not because they find some grain of value in her facade. The latter is what saddens me; the former I already expect.


Against Obama personally and not the issues?
Where have you been the past two years?
You damn well know that there are people who oppose Obama because Glenn Beck says so and I really doubt you're going to concede the point that Beck makes logical arguments. I'm not throwing you in this lot but there are a lot of douches in America who don't know the issues, see things going wrong yet can't point their nose in a 10 mile vicinity of the real problem.

The Socialist International is a joke. Most international organizations are. The UN tolerates the same human rights abuses by its member, i.e., Gitmo and China's lovely treatment of dissidents as the obv examples.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:59 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
I loved the interaction between Buckley and Gore Vidal. So classy.

Johnson is anti-war, pro-immigration and pro-choice so while intelligent he is definitely not electable the way Republicans act.


Vidal had it coming to him, now didn't he?
Why do liberals always and I mean always resort to name calling in lieu of an argument? "Nazi! Racist! Squaaawkkk, whistle squaawk!"
You guys need some new material, seriously.
And when their targets respond in kind, they get all indignant.
Thats the problem with you leftys; you can dish it out, but ya can't take it.

As for Johnson's electability; don't be surprised.
The RINOs currently selling us out are being exposed more and more, and their days are numbered.
Vidal is kinda a loon but when someone starts attacking you for being a homosexual I would get pissed to. The problem with mainstream politics is the name calling and the democrats are unwilling to take the Republicans to task on a legitimate issue because they would have to expose themselves as hypocrites. I'm the actual Left and I'd like to think I can dish it out as much as I can take it. It's what causes me so many problems in this damn thread.

No matter how much Republicans are exposed when people are simply opposed to Obama without concern for the issues, it doesn't matter if it's a libertarian or a republican as long as it's not him. I just want people to honestly engage the issues but it digresses into a shitstorm of name calling where you can trick people into looking like idiots because they don't know what the fuck they are talking about (Old news but classic; the shit doesn't even need to be edited: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448). People like Palin ffs; I honestly hope it's because they blindly hate Obama and it's not because they find some grain of value in her facade. The latter is what saddens me; the former I already expect.


Against Obama personally and not the issues?
Where have you been the past two years?
You damn well know that there are people who oppose Obama because Glenn Beck says so and I really doubt you're going to concede the point that Beck makes logical arguments. I'm not throwing you in this lot but there are a lot of douches in America who don't know the issues, see things going wrong yet can't point their nose in a 10 mile vicinity of the real problem.

The Socialist International is a joke. Most international organizations are. The UN tolerates the same human rights abuses by its member, i.e., Gitmo and China's lovely treatment of dissidents as the obv examples.


Perhaps, but the ignorant are not exclusive to the anti-Obama crowd, either.
I have never listened to Beck, Limbaugh etc, so I really have no idea what they are saying (though I can probably figure it out) so, no comment.
The point is, to dismiss the opposition to Obama as racist, etc. as Garafealo or whatever her name is and that ilk do is simply ridiculous. Hell Jimmah Carter basially made that claim.
It's idiotic. I, and I suspect most, don't give a damn what his skin tone is if he can set this country right again. He doesn't seem to be doing anyhing of the sort, though.
As it is, he is making it worse.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:31 pm 
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I wasn't making claims of racism albeit I know that that does exist. What I have an issue with is the people who just eat up whatever is thrown at them and then act as if they're doing politics proper. "I'm in the Tea Party and I watch O'Reilly. I am doing my duty as a citizen" when really all they are doing is opposing Obama for the six reasons that random FOX douche pundit said the night before without actually remembering what those six reasons were and whether they were factually legit.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:58 pm 
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An article that would make Frig cry on how democracy in the Middle East, or at least Tunisia and Egypt, will result in Islamic states insofar as radical Islam has been the only form of opposition to the US takes in those countries. So as the poor are given the right to vote, the radical Islam parties which have been helping them will be getting waves of votes and will in turn fuck over Israel and the US, deservedly for their treatment of Palestine, but not what liberals of the West would expect from democracy.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/31-0


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:41 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
As if dictators really give a fuck as to how they run their economy and it is as if dictators don't exist in capitalist nations, i.e. China, if anything you could point to the masses as idiots for wanting a socialist nation and appointing a dictator who claims he is for the people, as Chavez has done and honestly is doing according to my opinion, but once a dictator is in place the party name is just a facade if that is how they want to do it. The point of a dictator is that the people have no input which really isn't socialist and obv prevents any critique of unjust treatment if and when it does develop. It's one thing to be critical of Marxism, do it on a theoretical or argumentative foundation but point to a man who took over in the face of religious extremism and economic collapse and actually did improve things but not by improving the conditions of the working class but by allowing foreign investment to usurp local economies and you are not even making an argument. You're no better than Glenn Beck shouting "commie" at anything he doesn't assent to. By pointing to examples in the world of how what you call "socialism" doesn't pan out, you really aren't saying anything because in no way you can prove that these people are socialists. Point to how they have actual socialist programs which have failed; I would welcome it. Then I'll point you to all the capitalist regimes which have failed in terms of inexcusable levels of repression and poverty and we'll see how they aren't all that different when people are corrupt as fuck but at least socialism seeks for the better of everyone when it gets derailed while capitalism gets derailed, people get fucked and it's par for the course; it was the goal all along.

I'd argue that quantitatively more capitalist nations have had repression and poverty, but communist nations have a far worse track record of failing to live up to their lofty founding principles. But we've been through this many times before and you're still glorifying marxism and bashing capitalism while I'm just saying the former hasn't turned out for the better (in most cases), and the latter is the least undesirable system (again in most cases). You may think me blunt and crass in the things I say here, even liken me to Glenn Beck, but when it comes to some of your judgments you are every bit as blinkered as many of the right-wing nutjobs I occasionally come into contact with. But we have digressed.

You're riposting the issue of Ben Ali in the Internationale as a dictator by calling him and his policy 'not socialist'. What are you saying then, that the Internationale have for fourty years been oblivious to the fact that it had a dictator among its members - let alone questioning his policies? Or would you say the Internationale is less conscientious in putting its marxist doctrine into practice than you are?

Also, China capitalist? Uh-huh.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:08 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
An article that would make Frig cry on how democracy in the Middle East, or at least Tunisia and Egypt, will result in Islamic states insofar as radical Islam has been the only form of opposition to the US takes in those countries. So as the poor are given the right to vote, the radical Islam parties which have been helping them will be getting waves of votes and will in turn fuck over Israel and the US, deservedly for their treatment of Palestine, but not what liberals of the West would expect from democracy.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/31-0


Pretty pessimistic, I'd say, given the wide reporting that this is a democratic uprising of the young through facebook etc that the Muslim Brotherhood have tagged along with after the event. Islamic parties are regularly demonised and compared to Al Qaida by western media sources, something quite far from the truth. Besides, saying that radical Islam is the only form of opposition to Mubarak is a lie that plays into these regimes' hands by painting them as necessary to oppress a backwards people incapable of thinking for themselves. Which is bollocks, clearly.

You'll find this interesting, Trapt, a briefing from the Quilliam Foundation set up here by a former member of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/image ... yptjan.pdf

Quote:
Reactions on jihadist internet forums to the protests in both Egypt and Tunisia have been confused and muted. It seems like that many jihadists are clearly struggling to fit the news from Egypt and Tunisia into their existing narrative that jihadist organisations throughout the Middle East are steadily progressing towards establishing projihadist ‘Islamic states’.


Quote:
The high levels of support for the Egyptian protests among ordinary people may indicate a larger than suspected groundswell of support for genuinely democratic, non-sectarian politics in the Middle East. The lack of vocal support among the protestors for standard Islamist slogans perhaps indicates that much of this apparent support for the Brotherhood was not ideologically-based but rather based on a
shared opposition to the status quo for whom the Brotherhood was the only available outlet. This shows that Brotherhood claims to be the ‘only real opposition’ to dictatorial regimes in the Middle East should be viewed with a considerable amount of scepticism in future. Given the opportunity, many people in the Arab countries clearly prefer civil, nonsectarian parties over Islamists.


Under it all, Arabs are just like everyone else. Quel surprise.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:12 pm 
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China is a capitalist nation and I think emperor would back me up on that maybe not. Chuck would have the stats but that's not my thing. That's the problem with arguing with you about this is that you're more willing to subscribe to what states call themselves rather than they are. I don't care how much jargon China can fit in it's title; it is not a communist country anymore.

You never concede the fact that Marxism has worked in some cases yet you did and that's all I want to point out so we're on the same page there. I'm just not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Hell, America hasn't lived up to its founding principles either until some 40 years ago so change takes time and struggle. I'm not blinkered but I do hope that things can change. But honestly I don't expect them to.

The Internationale is less conscientious in putting its marxist doctrine into practice than I think it should be. Do you really think the long list of shoddy "socialist" states have done a great job in making the working class the ruling class?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Quote:
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak says he will not run for a new term in office in September elections


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt

:lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:49 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
Warmongering never bothered me with Republicans because it's either because the person is a dick which the Left has its Islamophobes like Frig as well or it's due to buying into media fear-mongering which has its effects which is why it is done. My problem is the unabashed commitment to capitalism by both democrats and republicans. Stick with it; don't hop ship to socialism or communism but do capitalism in a way that doesn't cost lives or fuck 5/6 of the world's population over into destitute poverty including the people in your own goddamn country, such as immigrants (legal and illegal) and the rural citizens who have no possibility for concrete well-paying jobs, not to mention a good education or even indoor plumbing in some cases.

Us, Marxists, may be nuts but the critique of capitalism we offer has it by the balls and either stop acting as if everything is peachy and learn to correct it or shut the fuck up and and let someone else attempt to fix it.


Yay

I'm not a Marxist, but I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, this video you posted earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448

is ridiculous and saddening. Goddammit.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:57 pm 
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I resent the term "Islamophobe". Phobia implies irrational fear. Fear of Islam is entirely justified.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:38 am 
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Goat wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
An article that would make Frig cry on how democracy in the Middle East, or at least Tunisia and Egypt, will result in Islamic states insofar as radical Islam has been the only form of opposition to the US takes in those countries. So as the poor are given the right to vote, the radical Islam parties which have been helping them will be getting waves of votes and will in turn fuck over Israel and the US, deservedly for their treatment of Palestine, but not what liberals of the West would expect from democracy.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/31-0


Pretty pessimistic, I'd say, given the wide reporting that this is a democratic uprising of the young through facebook etc that the Muslim Brotherhood have tagged along with after the event. Islamic parties are regularly demonised and compared to Al Qaida by western media sources, something quite far from the truth. Besides, saying that radical Islam is the only form of opposition to Mubarak is a lie that plays into these regimes' hands by painting them as necessary to oppress a backwards people incapable of thinking for themselves. Which is bollocks, clearly.
That's a good point. I feel like that article makes the assumption which I even kinda bought into myself based on stuff I heard about Iraq so I probably shouldn't have transposed it on to Egypt. However, the articles focus is mainly on the Palestine-Israel situation and no matter whether the state is made secular or religious, Israel isn't profiting from the US' puppet being deposed.

The article you posted is tres interesting and I like what it's saying.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:40 am 
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heatseeker wrote:
Also, this video you posted earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448

is ridiculous and saddening. Goddammit.
Commie :lame:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:26 am 
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traptunderice wrote:
China is a capitalist nation and I think emperor would back me up on that maybe not. Chuck would have the stats but that's not my thing. That's the problem with arguing with you about this is that you're more willing to subscribe to what states call themselves rather than they are. I don't care how much jargon China can fit in it's title; it is not a communist country anymore.


I'd call China a capitalist oligarchy at this point...so yeah, I am backing you up.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:03 am 
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emperorblackdoom wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
China is a capitalist nation and I think emperor would back me up on that maybe not. Chuck would have the stats but that's not my thing. That's the problem with arguing with you about this is that you're more willing to subscribe to what states call themselves rather than they are. I don't care how much jargon China can fit in it's title; it is not a communist country anymore.


I'd call China a capitalist oligarchy at this point...so yeah, I am backing you up.
Hells yeah. Capitalist authoritarianism. That's your future, world. Capitalism doesn't have to come in the form of a liberal democracy no more. Markets are easier to control with a boot on the throat of labor.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:21 am 
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It would be futile to put your boot on a machine though. Might lose your boot, maybe your foot.

In other words: someone hasn't moved on.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:10 am 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
I resent the term "Islamophobe". Phobia implies irrational fear. Fear of Islam is entirely justified.


Islamic fundamentalism, yes. But Islam as a whole?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:31 am 
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Milan wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
I resent the term "Islamophobe". Phobia implies irrational fear. Fear of Islam is entirely justified.


Islamic fundamentalism, yes. But Islam as a whole?


Fridge is a bigot, basically.


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