The General Politics Thread

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:57 pm

Goat wrote:

cry of the banshee wrote:

Goat wrote:

Well, we made peace with Northern Ireland without nuking it (yes, different situation... but still).

It is completely different, though.

The thing that pisses me off (as I mentioned) is the potential for a wider conflict. These assholes need to start getting their act together, and that goes for both sides.

Shit's getting old and with each new round of killing, it gets harder and harder to really sympathize with either side.

I agree. Have gone through periods of sympathy for either, both, and now neither, both are reliant on each other to hold onto power as that article I posted earlier said. Tough on the civilians on both sides, and tough on me having family out there...

Yeah, sorry about your family being under fire, that must be very worrying and no joke.

Honest question: why in the world would they want to live in that powder keg waiting to blow?

Thrashtildeth · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:04 pm

My family's been there for generations. That's their home, man. Why would anyone want to be in their home? That's all there is to it.

I was born there. I was lucky my parents decided to come to Australia. But for other people....they just wanna live where they grew up. IT's not so weird.

Karmakosmonaut · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:05 pm

Cú Chulainn wrote:

As a Scottish Nationalist (...)

Tehom · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:47 pm

Goat wrote:

American in "thinks everything everyone else does is designed to get his money" shocker. You can not want your country to interfere in foreign affairs without coming over as an inhuman dipshit, you know.

Anyway. Good piece:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -side.html

I said in the paragraph our foreign policy is a direct result at least in part due to Arab antipathy towards us, dope. Not that it matters at this point considering there are going to be more shitty "Ohh poor middle east posts", instead of actually realizing the place is a lost cause.

Goat · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:23 pm

cry of the banshee wrote:

Honest question: why in the world would they want to live in that powder keg waiting to blow?

Fuck knows, man. I tried to argue them out of it, but stubbornness seems to run through our veins. I like Britain, for all its many faults; they chose their own path, and what can I say, good luck to them...

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:56 am

RelentlessOblivion wrote:

a speedy resolution would have been to cut off Israel and Palestine until a treaty for lasting peace could be signed, it's hard to fight a war when your country is broke and your soldiers are starving

Umm Palestine receives no aid from America. And it's country is broke and their soldiers are starving.

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:00 am

Thrashtildeth wrote:

My family's been there for generations. That's their home, man. Why would anyone want to be in their home? That's all there is to it.

I was born there. I was lucky my parents decided to come to Australia. But for other people....they just wanna live where they grew up. IT's not so weird.

I met an eighteen year old Palestinian kid yesterday who brought to the protest his grandfather's key to his original house in Haifa before he was evicted by Israel and was forced to hike to Damascus. What about his home, bro? This isn't like a valid point, but it's pretty valid.

Thrashtildeth · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:16 am

traptunderice wrote:

Thrashtildeth wrote:

My family's been there for generations. That's their home, man. Why would anyone want to be in their home? That's all there is to it.

I was born there. I was lucky my parents decided to come to Australia. But for other people....they just wanna live where they grew up. IT's not so weird.

I met an eighteen year old Palestinian kid yesterday who brought to the protest his grandfather's key to his original house in Haifa before he was evicted by Israel and was forced to hike to Damascus. What about his home, bro? This isn't like a valid point, but it's pretty valid.

Not arguing that, dude. If you have a look back at V's post, he asked why would our family want to live in such a powder keg ready to blow, all I was doing was answering the question directly, I meant no other implication.

Besides, if you have a look back through my posts here, especially on the previous page where I got annoyed at Steve, I'm not taking sides on this issue. At this point, both sides are evil as far as I'm concerned.

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:24 am

Thrashtildeth wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

Thrashtildeth wrote:

My family's been there for generations. That's their home, man. Why would anyone want to be in their home? That's all there is to it.

I was born there. I was lucky my parents decided to come to Australia. But for other people....they just wanna live where they grew up. IT's not so weird.

I met an eighteen year old Palestinian kid yesterday who brought to the protest his grandfather's key to his original house in Haifa before he was evicted by Israel and was forced to hike to Damascus. What about his home, bro? This isn't like a valid point, but it's pretty valid.

Not arguing that, dude. If you have a look back at V's post, he asked why would our family want to live in such a powder keg ready to blow, all I was doing was answering the question directly, I meant no other implication.

Besides, if you have a look back through my posts here, especially on the previous page where I got annoyed at Steve, I'm not taking sides on this issue. At this point, both sides are evil as far as I'm concerned.

But both sides aren't evil. Palestinian unrest represents a moment in which they were shoved out of their homes in order to make room for Israel, and now Israel basically works to undermine their basic existence. Whether I was spouting Leftist drivel earlier or not, the links that I posted contained valid representations of how the Israelis feel about Palestine, but more importantly the policies that have been enacted to kill their country and its civilians of hunger and thirst. To shoot "rockets" (whatever that implies whether it be bombs or firecrackers, I'll even concede the point, call all 254 "rockets" bombs if you'd like) at a country that blockades you and forces you to watch your families starve and wither seems justified to a degree, no?

Thrashtildeth · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:06 am

traptunderice wrote:

Thrashtildeth wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

Thrashtildeth wrote:

My family's been there for generations. That's their home, man. Why would anyone want to be in their home? That's all there is to it.

I was born there. I was lucky my parents decided to come to Australia. But for other people....they just wanna live where they grew up. IT's not so weird.

I met an eighteen year old Palestinian kid yesterday who brought to the protest his grandfather's key to his original house in Haifa before he was evicted by Israel and was forced to hike to Damascus. What about his home, bro? This isn't like a valid point, but it's pretty valid.

Not arguing that, dude. If you have a look back at V's post, he asked why would our family want to live in such a powder keg ready to blow, all I was doing was answering the question directly, I meant no other implication.

Besides, if you have a look back through my posts here, especially on the previous page where I got annoyed at Steve, I'm not taking sides on this issue. At this point, both sides are evil as far as I'm concerned.

But both sides aren't evil. Palestinian unrest represents a moment in which they were shoved out of their homes in order to make room for Israel, and now Israel basically works to undermine their basic existence. Whether I was spouting Leftist drivel earlier or not, the links that I posted contained valid representations of how the Israelis feel about Palestine, but more importantly the policies that have been enacted to kill their country and its civilians of hunger and thirst. To shoot "rockets" (whatever that implies whether it be bombs or firecrackers, I'll even concede the point, call all 254 "rockets" bombs if you'd like) at a country that blockades you and forces you to watch your families starve and wither seems justified to a degree, no?

You keep looking at this like the palestinans never did anything to hurt anybody. The links you posted are perfectly legitimate, I have no arguments against that. Still, no offence intended at all, but you sound like you really have no idea what's going on over there at all except for the last couple of years. Do some more research dating back a few more decades.

There is a long history of Palestian acts of terror against Israeli civilians dating all the way back to the inception of the Israeli state. Now here's the thing you have to remember: whether or not it was right or wrong for that land to become the state of Israel, it was lawful. Under international laws, the Israeli people were given that land. Again, maybe not necessarily right but still completely lawful. Now go and look up the history of Palestinan terror attacks on the people of Israel. Look up what Hamas were up to in the 90s. Here's a useful link for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... de_attacks

Now, I'm not AT ALL trying to say that this makes the Israeli actions right. In fact, I don't believe that at all. The Israeli government, as I've said, is comprised almost entirely of right wing lunatics and at this point, they're completely morally fucked. Having said that, it annoys me how you keep trying to make Israel out like they're the "bad guys" in this.

There's no bad guy in this, it's not a comic book. Both sides are completely evil, just take my word for it. I've lived through this shit my whole life, and I've worried about my family through too many suicide bombings to be lectured on the "innocence" of the Palestinians.

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:34 am

Trapt is being a bit disingenuous. Palestinians are probably on the ethically correct side of things, but only if we don't equate them with Hamas.

Thrashtildeth · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:52 am

Cú Chulainn wrote:

Trapt is being a bit disingenuous. Palestinians are probably on the ethically correct side of things, but only if we don't equate them with Hamas.

Well that's like saying the Israeli's haven't done anything wrong, but only if we don't equate them with the Israeli government.

You have to equate them as such - both Hamas and the Israeli government were voted in, after all.

RelentlessOblivion · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:09 pm

the most heinous acts imagineable are often those undertaken under the guise of religion, this is a well established fact, I have to question whether this conflict is born of the Palestinian-Israli governments repeated fucking of each other or if it is a religious conflict, if it is the latter then it seems unlikely that anything other then genocide will ever resolve the conflict and if that is the case then ultimately Israel will be the nation to fall unless of course the allied forces get involved in which case we'll probably see twenty years of constant war with astronomical casulties on both sides (most likely innocent civilians will be the largest casulty group) it's a horrible situation and the finger of blame must not be pointed solely at Israel nor at Palestine

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:18 pm

RelentlessOblivion wrote:

then ultimately Israel will be the nation to fall unless of course the allied forces get involved

umm Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the world.

@bar: Yeah, international law doesn't mean jack shit to the people who were evicted at gunpoint. Livelihood being threatened, they resorted to violence. It's colonial oppression and colonial oppression is overthrown through resistance and violence. Both sides may be evil, but at least one has grounds on justice that they can resort back to. Unjustly occupied land reinforced through unjust treatment.

I don't want to make it personal, but you're family as Israeli citizens can leave the country at any time if suicide bombings are too intense. That's there point. Leaving has always been option for them. Not the case for Palestinians. Materially and legally in most cases.

Edit: I'm at 4:52 with skeleton gloves and my head down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... vU67u9i9-Y

cry of the banshee · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:00 pm

Does anybody have any stats on Israeli dual citizenship? It's hard to find any sources that aren't biased.

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:24 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opini ... d=fb-share

Quote:

Mr. Jabari wasn’t just interested in a long-term cease-fire; he was also the person responsible for enforcing previous cease-fire understandings brokered by the Egyptian intelligence agency. Mr. Jabari enforced those cease-fires only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop its attacks on Gaza. On the morning that he was killed, Mr. Jabari received a draft proposal for an extended cease-fire with Israel, including mechanisms that would verify intentions and ensure compliance. This draft was agreed upon by me and Hamas’s deputy foreign minister, Mr. Hamad, when we met last week in Egypt.

Quote:

Israel has used targeted killings, ground invasions, drones, F-16s, economic siege and political boycott. The only thing it has not tried and tested is reaching an agreement (through third parties) for a long-term mutual cease-fire.

No government can tolerate having its civilian population attacked by rockets from a neighboring territory. And the firing of thousands of rockets from Gaza into Israel must end. There was a chance for a mutually agreed cease-fire.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/11/16-13

Quote:

Benjamin Netanyahu felt comfortable enough to call Israeli attacks on Gaza as “surgical” (quoted in Al-jazeera “Rockets aim at Tel Aviv as conflict escalates”). The doctors of war proceed with great precision, although I would urge to strongly disagree with Netanyahu’s comments, as the death toll of civilians grows to twenty-nine and over two hundred injured in Gaza. However, Israel feels that it is a waging a professional war on Gaza, which is somehow more legitimate than the Palestinian retaliation attacks. And Western media and government voices support this reasoning, not only through their unbraided political and economic support for Israel, but also through their continued narration of the bomb competition between Gaza and Israel: through Western media and government there are clearly good guys and bad guys.

Quote:

All Palestinian resistant movements are referred to as militants or terrorists. Western media sources feel comfortable awarding responsibility for all attacks on Israel as being launched by that “terrorist organisation”: Hamas. Hamas, who although has strongly avoided the topic of elections in recent years, it was once upon time the democratic elected body of Palestine. Hamas was also not responsible for the rockets launched prior reaching the ceasefire on November 14th, 2012 before the assassination of Ahmed al-Jabari; Hamas’s military wing leader. The blowing up of one of its leader was bound to bring Hamas into this violence, which at least initially, it was trying to avoid. Many Gazans critique Hamas for not maintaining its resistance stance against Israel. However, Hamas has now forcefully taken up the mode of retaliation following the assassination of its leader; I stress that Hamas’s armed response comes as no surprise. However, Western media sources and governments were too quick to label Hamas attacks as uncalled-for militarist action. The argument that Hamas was compelled to respond to the assassination of one of its leaders does not enter western political or media discussions.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/dissectin ... tacks.html

Quote:

Throughout the years of rocket attacks into Israel, a total of 26 people have been killed altogether.

Quote:

And for an entire year before Operation Pillar of Cloud, not a single Israeli was killed by rocket or mortar. Yet approximately sixteen hours after Pillar of Cloud commenced, a rocket from Gaza killed three Israelis.

It was during both military operations that Israel endured the highest number of fatalities from Gaza rockets and mortars in the shortest time spans. Rocket fatalities are more likely to happen during major Israel “anti-rocket” operations. Note that I say that fatalities are more likely to happen, rather than fatalities increase. Because fatalities are so rare, when they do happen in a burst, they appear more as instigations rather than incidental progressions.

Quote:

After a full year of no Israelis being killed by rocket fire from Gaza, Israel had to invade Gaza, prompting the new killing of three Israeli civilians, which provides retroactive justification for the prompting itself.

Still, this is part of the story. As much as the IDF loves to play with numbers, there are certain numbers that it avoids, such as the numbers behind the artillery fire leveled against Gaza, which rivals the number of rocket attacks from Gaza.

Goat · **Posted:** Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:27 am

traptunderice wrote:

RelentlessOblivion wrote:

a speedy resolution would have been to cut off Israel and Palestine until a treaty for lasting peace could be signed, it's hard to fight a war when your country is broke and your soldiers are starving

Umm Palestine receives no aid from America. And it's country is broke and their soldiers are starving.

Nonsense, Palestine gets plenty of international aid. Even after the sums are held up:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17496561

traptunderice · **Posted:** Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:37 am

Goat wrote:

traptunderice wrote:

RelentlessOblivion wrote:

a speedy resolution would have been to cut off Israel and Palestine until a treaty for lasting peace could be signed, it's hard to fight a war when your country is broke and your soldiers are starving

Umm Palestine receives no aid from America. And it's country is broke and their soldiers are starving.

Nonsense, Palestine gets plenty of international aid. Even after the sums are held up:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17496561

I was thinking they received all their aid from the UN and not the US. I stand corrected. Still, quite a large disparity, between $115 billion and $4 billion: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... oreign-aid

Cú Chulainn · **Posted:** Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:41 am

Thrashtildeth wrote:

Cú Chulainn wrote:

Trapt is being a bit disingenuous. Palestinians are probably on the ethically correct side of things, but only if we don't equate them with Hamas.

Well that's like saying the Israeli's haven't done anything wrong, but only if we don't equate them with the Israeli government.

You have to equate them as such - both Hamas and the Israeli government were voted in, after all.

Not exactly, the national makeup of these two nations are, after all, very different. It's like the difference between the British government and the IRA during the Irish fights for independence.

Thrashtildeth · **Posted:** Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:39 am

@Trapt: What are you trying to prove, dude? It doesn't mean anything if you specifically look for information that only supports one side of an argument. Anyone can do that. Observe:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/terr ... index.html

Quote:

On March 16, 2004, Palestinian terrorists associated with Yasser Arafats Fatah group tricked a 12-year-old boy into carrying a large bomb in his school bag into a checkpoint near Nablus. Abdullah Quran's life was saved only because a cell phone rigged to detonate the 13-pound bomb failed to set off the explosive at the checkpoint as it had been designed to do.

Quote:

The New York Times on March 24, 2004 reported that again a gullible teenager was tricked into carrying an 18-pound bomb vest to an Israeli checkpoint. A 16-year-old Palestinian boy, with the mind of a 12-year old according to his brother, had a suicide bomb vest strapped to his body when he was stopped at a checkpoint. The Israeli soldiers used a robot to provide the boy with some scissors to remove the vest

Quote:

How did the Palestinian people react to this outrage? The Washington Times reported: Although some offered conspiracy theories blaming Israeli secret agents, many acknowledged that some militants deliberately involve children in their attacks on Israelis.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/wor ... line_x.htm

Quote:

1988: Hamas publishes manifesto calling for "holy war" to create an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, including Israel, and challenging the Palestine Liberation Organization's claim as the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

Quote:

April 6, 1994: First Hamas car bombing kills eight in Israeli city of Afula.
April 13, 1994: First Hamas suicide bombing kills five in Israeli city of Hadera.
Oct. 19, 1994: Hamas suicide bomber blows up Tel Aviv bus, killing 22.
February-March 1994: Hamas suicide bombers blow up two Jerusalem buses, killing 45.
February to March 1996: 47 Israelis killed in three suicide attacks in retaliation for killing of Ayyash.
September 1997: Yassin released from prison after botched Israeli attempt to kill Hamas leader in Jordan.
September 2000: Second Palestinian uprising begins.
June 1, 2001: Hamas suicide bomber blows up outside Tel Aviv disco, killing 21.
Aug. 9, 2001: Hamas suicide bomber blows up Jerusalem restaurant, killing 15.
March 27, 2002: Hamas bomber blows up Netanya hotel, killing 29.
July 23, 2002: Israel drops one-ton bomb on house of Hamas leader Salah Shehadeh in Gaza, killing him and 14 others.
Aug. 21, 2003: Hamas leader Ismail Shanab killed in Israeli airstrike.
August-September 2003: 39 killed in three Hamas suicide bombings.
Sept. 6, 2003: Yassin slightly wounded in Israeli bombing in Gaza.
March 14, 2004: Two bombers, one from Hamas, kill 10 at Ashdod port

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/mi ... gotiations

Quote:

The resumption of Middle East peace talks has been dismissed by the Hamas leader, Khalid Meshaal, as nothing more than a public relations exercise, designed to help the US president in the run-up to mid-term elections and polish Israel's tarnished image after its assault on an aid flotilla. He urged the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, and Jordan's King Abdullah II not to take part in the discussions.

Quote:

"By entering these talks, Netanyahu can present an image that Israel is concerned about peace, and he will do so with an Arab umbrella [if Jordan and Egypt attend], this is helping Netanyahu polish his photo in the eyes of the world. There are no Palestinian or Arab reasons for these talks."

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