The General Politics Thread

rio

Fond as I am of the Enlightenment, you're looking at this in terms of grand philosophical clashes which is terribly black and white and not of great resonance with people leading real lives.

The Muslims in Europe scaring you so much is an issue of immigration and I suppose multiculturalism etc. This is not related to the Israel/Palestine conflict aside from the fact that both involve Muslims.

Again, you're ignoring the level of suffering endured as a result of Israeli actions by civillians who- quite probably- are generally humane and intelligent individuals. Then you're justifying ignoring it by lumping all those people into this homogenous bogeyman, and using Englightenment Philosophy as a banner to wage war on them. No me gusta.

C_Chulainn

rio wrote
Fond as I am of the Enlightenment, you're looking at this in terms of grand philosophical clashes which is terribly black and white and not of great resonance with people leading real lives.The Muslims in Europe scaring you so much is an issue of immigration and I suppose multiculturalism etc. This is not related to the Israel/Palestine conflict aside from the fact that both involve Muslims.Again, you're ignoring the level of suffering endured as a result of Israeli actions by civillians who- quite probably- are generally humane and intelligent individuals. Then you're justifying ignoring it by lumping all those people into this homogenous bogeyman, and using Englightenment Philosophy as a banner to wage war on them. No me gusta.

Who's waging war? Israel has had to repel 40 years of repeated invasions and attacks ever since its conception. When they established their independence, boom, invasion. From countries that were established and carved out of the former Ottoman Empire (controlled by Britain) in much the same manner Israel was only a few years before.
The big picture is that Israel has as much a right to exist as the other middle-eastern countries, and is justified in repelling invasion. The small picture is that people are getting hurt because of ruthlessness on one side and stupidity and fanaticism on the other.

I'm quite sure, however, that this boat incident was a deliberate provocation for publicity.

rio

This "40 years of invasion and attacks" is not the fault of the Palestinians, who have suffered far more as a result of these conflicts over the years than the Israelis have. Yet, it is they- not the Saudis, Jordanians or Egyptians- that suffer the brunt of Israeli militarism. They haven't invaded Israel (quite the reverse) and it seems a stretch to say the whole region can be written off as "stupid fanatics".

Again, you won't see them as people in their own right- they are just another section of this monolithic pantomime villain called Islam who deserve what they get because they aren't enlightened secularists, so it seems. This is the very worst of the logic of Hitchens et. al. if you ask me. Abstraction into broad philosophical terms that avoid having to confront the human cost of this pet enlightenment project.

Goat

William Hague's just made a strident statement on the flotilla attack in Parliament. Calls for the blockade to be lifted and an independent enquiry, but rejected a call for sanctions, which is fair enough from a British foreign minister I suppose. But independent enquiries do little - the Goldstone report was rejected and all but called anti-semetic. Without the Yanks, Israel's right will dig in; Clinton needs to get off her arse, pronto, especially after the way Israel treated Biden on his last visit.

Kathaarian

FrigidSymphony wrote
Goat wrote
It's a shame pre-Islam Aaron and Kayla aren't around any more, be nice to get an opposing viewpoint to all this righteous indignation.
I might be able to provide that.My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression. It's not that I'm pro-Israel, I'm just incredibly anti-Islam. Anything curbs the growth of Islam in that region is fine by me.What I don't agree with is the non-legal expansion by orthodox fundamentalists. Bah.

Well. The people on the boats that were attacked were from religious organizations but a lot of them were Turkish citizens. The only secular country with a Muslim population. This alone proves that Israel is not just using violence to defend its self against Islamic extremists but anyone who happens to do something they do not approve.

Karmakosmonaut

As far as the whole Israeli-Palestinian question goes, I'm decidedly pro-Palestinian.

Why didn't we just give the Jews their Autonomous Oblast in Siberia... sigh.

North_From_Here

Karmakosmonaut wrote
Why didn't we just give the Jews their Autonomous Oblast in Siberia... sigh.

Not a bad idea, considering Russia's population crisis! Heck they might be a good counterweight to Russia's own 'Muslim problem'.

Karmakosmonaut

What's all this bullshit about jews and Israel being a counterpoint to the muslims anyway?

Goat

Counterpoints, bro. That's what Fridge actually believes.

rio

lol

C_Chulainn

:lol:

North_From_Here

That image is the best :lol:

cry_of_the_banshee

Good album

C_Chulainn

:omfg:
What's this I hear about the aid flotilla being a branch of hamas with ties to al-qaida?

I'm not really surprised, Hamas is known for providing social aid to its people, that's why they were elected...

The more facts come out, the better Israel is looking.

rio

Yes according to the Israeli government those are all facts. Looks like they were right all along!

Goat

FrigidSymphony wrote
:omfg: What's this I hear about the aid flotilla being a branch of hamas with ties to al-qaida?I'm not really surprised, Hamas is known for providing social aid to its people, that's why they were elected...The more facts come out, the better Israel is looking.

As Rio said, this all depends on you believing Israeli spin. But were I a Palestinian in a manourished Gaza with no working sewers, electricity, or proper water supply, I'd probably have voted for Hamas, if it was a choice between them and the corrupt useless assholes that were Fatah and the complete and utter nothing that they achieved.

OH NO HE VOTED FOR SOMEONE WE DON'T LIKE GET HIM

And Fridge, Hamas are already in Gaza, so, y'know, they don't need to go out blockade-running. If that boat was full of terrorists I'd have expected a few, y'know, weapons to be found. Concrete and gas masks are not weapons.

C_Chulainn

The aid flotilla was a huge IRL troll. The Israeli government offered to take their aid materials to Gaza through their own channels, without breaking their blockade, but the flotilla refused, insistent on provoking a reaction.
As far as the IHH's connections to terrorism, they've already had headquarters raided by the Turkish government and been found sending weapons and jihadist material to warzones in Bosnia, Cecnia, Afghanistan and Palestine.

Goat

The aid flotilla was a huge IRL troll. The Israeli government offered to take their aid materials to Gaza through their own channels, without breaking their blockade, but the flotilla refused, insistent on provoking a reaction.

The whole point of the blockade, which the Israelis have admitted to, is to choke off Gaza. The aid materials included building supplies such as concrete, which Israel will not allow through, so letting them have it wouldn't have got the aid to its destination. And no-one's denying that the flotilla was trying to run the blockade.

traptunderice

I don't want to address any distinct points but frig basically made me throw up in my mouth. If only I thought all muslims were terrorist. You would like Michael Savage, frig.

Karmakosmonaut

Frigid:

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