The General Politics Thread

cry_of_the_banshee

Fuck Israel; this isn't about "self defense".

Thrashtildeth

Israel acting this way genuinely scares me.

I'm not one of these proud Jews...I was born Jewish, whatever. Who cares. It doesn't really make a difference. Religion doesn't even enter into my lifestyle, one way or the other.

But at the end of the day, I was born a Jew, and that's still what I am, and people are too fucking stupid to separate the concept of Israel from the concept of just being Jewish.

When other countries do stupid shit, it's not the general populace that gets hated on....just the government. But with this shit, you instantly start hearing people talking about "those fucking Jews".

This gives people a reason to hate me, however ludicrous, and that shit scares me. There are enough people out there who barely need a reason to kick a jew in the head, without this shit going down. Gimme a break Israel!

traptunderice

Thrashtilldeth wrote
Israel acting this way genuinely scares me.I'm not one of these proud Jews...I was born Jewish, whatever. Who cares. It doesn't really make a difference. Religion doesn't even enter into my lifestyle, one way or the other.But at the end of the day, I was born a Jew, and that's still what I am, and people are too fucking stupid to separate the concept of Israel from the concept of just being Jewish.When other countries do stupid shit, it's not the general populace that gets hated on....just the government. But with this shit, you instantly start hearing people talking about "those fucking Jews".This gives people a reason to hate me, however ludicrous, and that shit scares me. There are enough people out there who barely need a reason to kick a jew in the head, without this shit going down. Gimme a break Israel!

And I thought those living in Gaza had it bad.

Thrashtildeth

Oh, fuck off.

I'm condemning their actions whether for selfish reasons or otherwise. Cut me a fucking break.

cry_of_the_banshee

Thrashtilldeth wrote
Israel acting this way genuinely scares me.I'm not one of these proud Jews...I was born Jewish, whatever. Who cares. It doesn't really make a difference. Religion doesn't even enter into my lifestyle, one way or the other.But at the end of the day, I was born a Jew, and that's still what I am, and people are too fucking stupid to separate the concept of Israel from the concept of just being Jewish.When other countries do stupid shit, it's not the general populace that gets hated on....just the government. But with this shit, you instantly start hearing people talking about "those fucking Jews".This gives people a reason to hate me, however ludicrous, and that shit scares me. There are enough people out there who barely need a reason to kick a jew in the head, without this shit going down. Gimme a break Israel!

Obviously, Israel's criminal behavior has nothing to do with being Jewish. Many Jews are anti-Zionist; the problem for you guys is that there are people that will associate all Jews with Zionism, and like you said use it to feed their hate for Jews.
It's too bad, because ordinary dudes like you and Zad will (potentially) feel the heat, because of a few maniacal power hungry degenerates... and my own country's government is complicit in this; unalloyed support and looking the other way has been SOP for decades.

The whole business is just plain dirty.
And with Bibi holding the reins, it has real potential to get even dirtier.

ganeshaRules

Blaming all jews for the zionist is the same that blaming all muslim for Al-Quaeda or Hamas, or blaming all catholics for the pedophilia.

I'm against zionism, not againts jews. Well, I'm against fanatism.

C_Chulainn

cry of the banshee wrote
Fuck Israel; this isn't about "self defense".

To be fair, a lot of the more massive land expansions happened as a result of Israel being attacked by its neighbours and beating them back, winning territory as a result.

Goat

It's a shame pre-Islam Aaron and Kayla aren't around any more, be nice to get an opposing viewpoint to all this righteous indignation.

C_Chulainn

Goat wrote
It's a shame pre-Islam Aaron and Kayla aren't around any more, be nice to get an opposing viewpoint to all this righteous indignation.

I might be able to provide that.

My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression. It's not that I'm pro-Israel, I'm just incredibly anti-Islam. Anything curbs the growth of Islam in that region is fine by me.

What I don't agree with is the non-legal expansion by orthodox fundamentalists. Bah.

Fingon

FrigidSymphony wrote
Goat wrote
It's a shame pre-Islam Aaron and Kayla aren't around any more, be nice to get an opposing viewpoint to all this righteous indignation.
I might be able to provide that.My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression. It's not that I'm pro-Israel, I'm just incredibly anti-Islam. Anything curbs the growth of Islam in that region is fine by me.What I don't agree with is the non-legal expansion by orthodox fundamentalists. Bah.

I for one believe that Israel is one of the factors that keeps the islam from evolving into a more modern religion. And fact is, what religion both sides are shouldn't be the main subject. From pure humanist perspectives, that whole area is hell on earth.

Goat

FrigidSymphony wrote
My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression.

So oppression is only bad when Muslims do it?

C_Chulainn

Goat wrote
FrigidSymphony wrote
My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression.

So oppression is only bad when Muslims do it?

First of all, whatever Israel may occasionally do, it's still a democracy. Second, Islam merits no sympathy whatsoever. The culture is irrevocably tied to the religion, keeping it chained to the dark ages. Israel is justified in preserving its existence given its purpose of counteracting the spread of Islam.

rio

Islamic extremism in its Hamas form is not an old phenomenon, it is a relatively recent one. Hamas never used to be the political party of choice for Palestinians.

I'm not saying at all that Israel is the main cause of this across the Muslim world (although I'm sure in the Gaza strip it is)- in fact I'd probably say it's way down the list. But it is hard to swallow the argument that Israel could be a beacon of democratic light in a dark place. Sure, it is a freer society, but it shows no signs of contributing towards making the rest of the Middle East freer. It that was the case then I could see FS's point, but as it isn't I can't.

rio

FrigidSymphony wrote
Goat wrote
FrigidSymphony wrote
My view? Israel is a (not ideal, granted) western foothold in a barbarous pit of Islamic obscenity and oppression.

So oppression is only bad when Muslims do it?
First of all, whatever Israel may occasionally do, it's still a democracy. Second, Islam merits no sympathy whatsoever. The culture is irrevocably tied to the religion, keeping it chained to the dark ages. Israel is justified in preserving its existence given its purpose of counteracting the spread of Islam.

Yeah but we're not sympathising with Islam, we're sympathising with Islamic people.

EDIT: In fact, just people full stop.

C_Chulainn

Isreal is simply the lesser of two evils. That's all.

Plus, the naive hippie multiculturalists who drone on about Isreali imperialism and whatnot and keep on insisting that Islam is a "religion of peace" piss me off.

rio

FrigidSymphony wrote
Isreal is simply the lesser of two evils. That's all.Plus, the naive hippie multiculturalists who drone on about Isreali imperialism and whatnot and keep on insisting that Islam is a "religion of peace" piss me off.

Nobody here is doing that though, so it's a straw man.

The "lesser of two evils" argument ignores the role that Israeli actions have in creating this "greater evil" in places like Gaza.

Plus, by that logic we would all have to stop complaining about Guantanamo Bay and the Iraq War etc. So long as what we're doing isn't quite as bad as Saddam or Osama Bin Laden, it's justified.

C_Chulainn

rio wrote
FrigidSymphony wrote
Isreal is simply the lesser of two evils. That's all.Plus, the naive hippie multiculturalists who drone on about Isreali imperialism and whatnot and keep on insisting that Islam is a "religion of peace" piss me off.
Nobody here is doing that though, so it's a straw man.The "lesser of two evils" argument ignores the role that Israeli actions have in creating this "greater evil" in places like Gaza.Plus, by that logic we would all have to stop complaining about Guantanamo Bay and the Iraq War etc. So long as what we're doing isn't quite as bad as Saddam or Osama Bin Laden, it's justified.

I know, it was an aside.

Isreali actions may have contributed to the general warfare, but the justification that I'm using is the presence and characteristics of Islam, which Israeli actions have nothing to do with, except provide an easy target.

Guantanamo Bay and the Iraq War are different issues, with different nuances.

rio

The "presence and characteristics of Islam" are a justification for what, though? Killing civillians armed with sticks on a boat in international waters? What Israel is doing and has done in recent history to Gaza? I don't see how the nature of Islam as a religion justifies these things.

Guantanamo/Iraq are different issues but illustrate the same principle. If something should be supported because it's the "lesser of two evils", then you're basically excusing it sinking to the level of the greater evil (or a millimetre above it, at least).

Goat

It's a bit rich to tar every Palestinian ever with the brush of Islamic extremism, though. That's like saying all Jews are potential Baruch Goldsteins. The facts of the matter currently under discussion are this: Israel boarded an aid boat in international waters, met resistence, and responded by killing people. They then took pictures of 'weapons' found during a search, which include a limited number of kitchen knives, a couple of hatchets, other typical ships' tools, iron bars, and frigging gas masks and bulletproof vests, which they are claiming is 'proof' that a lynching was planned.

Now, if a boatload of Jews was invaded in international waters by Palestinians, their resistance would be praised to the skies and the Gaza strip would probably have been bombed shitless by now. Taking pictures of iron bars etc and saying 'but look! they're supporters of terrorism!' would have been laughed off.

No-one's saying Islam's awesome, Fridge, but you can't take an incident like this and justify it because Islam can be violent from time to time.

C_Chulainn

I'm justifying it because I am, quite honestly, scared shitless of Islam and its growing presence in the western world. The ideology represents everything the Enlightenment was against blah blah you know the argument- Anything that supports western presence in that area gets my ok.

Although I do wish they'd stop making it so easy for people to criticize them. This boat thing was overreacting.

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