The General Politics Thread

Goat

Balls.

Goat

UK national debt will pass a trillion Pounds today. We're spending more on paying off the interest than we are on defence.

Karmakosmonaut

Rule Britannia!

North_From_Here

Goat wrote
UK national debt will pass a trillion Pounds today. We're spending more on paying off the interest than we are on defence.

So does China hold your debt too?

Goat

Just over 30% is held by "foreign investors" - whoever we can sell gilts to, really.

Goat

Remarkably sensible article in the Telegraph about Egypt -

<a class="postlink" href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100073950/what-is-happening-in-egypt-is-not-our-business/">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peter ... -business/</a>

JokerMachine

It's not "our" (speaking from the perspective of the US/UK) business, because the current leadership is a "friend", even if it is a de facto dictatorship. As a friend of mine from a different forum put it:

its pretty telling to see how the Iranian protests were treated compared to Egyptian protests. in the iranian protests, the state department intervened and convinced twitter to stay online for another couple days instead of doing an update, they were encouraged and praised by american officials, and given tons of time on the news. however, since egypt's dictator is friendly with the US and does what the US wants on the Israel-Palestine issue, then we want him to stay in.it isnt any surprise that very few people in the middle east don't take the calls for democracy seriously by the US, because the only times the US actually cares about democracy is when it might weaken its enemies

Goat

Quite.

Some pics - <a class="postlink" href="http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/">http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/</a> (not all SFW)

There are some amazing stories leaking through on Twitter. Al Jazeera has good coverage - <a class="postlink" href="http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/29/live-blog-291-egypts-protests-continue">http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/ ... s-continue</a>

GeneralDiomedes

Goat wrote
Quite.Some pics - <a class="postlink" href="http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/">http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/</a> (not all SFW)

Amazing pics

cry_of_the_banshee

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

-T. Jefferson

How far we have strayed from the road laid by our Founding Fathers...

JokerMachine

cry of the banshee wrote
honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.-T. JeffersonHow far we have strayed from the road laid by our Founding Fathers...

Yeah, we've also abolished slavery.

Also, "honest friendship" is impossible in politics.

cry_of_the_banshee

JokerMachine wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.-T. JeffersonHow far we have strayed from the road laid by our Founding Fathers...
Yeah, we've also abolished slavery.Also, "honest friendship" is impossible in politics.

We abolished slavery? Really? Gee, you learn something new every day, I guess.
Yes, I am aware of that, but it is not germane to, well, anything really, and frankly it is a bore having that threadbare canard trotted out every single time Jeffersons name is mentioned.

You're not seeing the tree for the forest, or however it goes...
the obvious point of that quote is the avoidance of becoming involved with other nations government, or allying ourselves with them, while engaging in commerce.

cry_of_the_banshee

Anyway, this could be a good thing. I don't know that much about it, but apparently the Egyptian people (and the Yemen) live under some pretty harsh conditions, under a tinpot 30 year dicator.
But, the Islamic Revolution in Iran (this really does remind me of that in many ways) wasn't necessarilly good for the Iranian people.
As bad as the Shah was, is the Ayatollah any better?
A boot on your neck is still a boot on your neck, regardless of who is wearing it.
So, it could be for the worse, as well. I guess only time will tell.

Interesting that Mubarak himself refused to step down, though.

North_From_Here

cry of the banshee wrote
JokerMachine wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.-T. JeffersonHow far we have strayed from the road laid by our Founding Fathers...
Yeah, we've also abolished slavery.Also, "honest friendship" is impossible in politics.
We abolished slavery? Really? Gee, you learn something new every day, I guess.Yes, I am aware of that, but it is not germane to, well, anything really, and frankly it is a bore having that threadbare canard trotted out every single time Jeffersons name is mentioned.You're not seeing the tree for the forest, or however it goes...the obvious point of that quote is the avoidance of becoming involved with other nations government, or allying ourselves with them, while engaging in commerce.

Jefferson's problem, whether he wanted to or not, was that he was just as capable as favoring the French as Hamilton was at favoring the British. Avoiding entangling alliances is sage advice, but early America was too weak not to lean pro-French or pro-British. Still, after the war of 1812 the US position was very safe on the continent, so the founders did something right.

North_From_Here

cry of the banshee wrote
Anyway, this could be a good thing. I don't know that much about it, but apparently the Egyptian people (and the Yemen) live under some pretty harsh conditions, under a tinpot 30 year dicator.But, the Islamic Revolution in Iran (this really does remind me of that in many ways) wasn't necessarilly good for the Iranian people.As bad as the Shah was, is the Ayatollah any better?A boot on your neck is still a boot on your neck, regardless of who is wearing it.So, it could be for the worse, as well. I guess only time will tell.Interesting that Mubarak himself refused to step down, though.

Agreed. The Shah was just better for the West.

cry_of_the_banshee

emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
Anyway, this could be a good thing. I don't know that much about it, but apparently the Egyptian people (and the Yemen) live under some pretty harsh conditions, under a tinpot 30 year dicator.But, the Islamic Revolution in Iran (this really does remind me of that in many ways) wasn't necessarilly good for the Iranian people.As bad as the Shah was, is the Ayatollah any better?A boot on your neck is still a boot on your neck, regardless of who is wearing it.So, it could be for the worse, as well. I guess only time will tell.Interesting that Mubarak himself refused to step down, though.
Agreed. The Shah was just better for the West.

Yeah but he was bad for his own people.
My personal belief is that we should not interfere with other nations' governance, it always comes back to bite us on the ass.
The business of America should be doing business, nothing else outside of self-defense or defense of only our truest and staunchest allies (Britain, France, Australia, etc). and I mean only the tried and true, such as the ones I just named.
Those three (if I am neglecting the mention of anybody, my apologies) have always stood by us, and we should always do the same.

North_From_Here

cry of the banshee wrote
emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
Anyway, this could be a good thing. I don't know that much about it, but apparently the Egyptian people (and the Yemen) live under some pretty harsh conditions, under a tinpot 30 year dicator.But, the Islamic Revolution in Iran (this really does remind me of that in many ways) wasn't necessarilly good for the Iranian people.As bad as the Shah was, is the Ayatollah any better?A boot on your neck is still a boot on your neck, regardless of who is wearing it.So, it could be for the worse, as well. I guess only time will tell.Interesting that Mubarak himself refused to step down, though.
Agreed. The Shah was just better for the West.
Yeah but he was bad for his own people.My personal belief is that we should not interfere with other nations' governance, it always comes back to bite us on the ass.The business of America should be doing business, nothing else outside of self-defense or defense of only our truest and staunchest allies (Britain, France, Australia, etc). and I mean only the tried and true, such as the ones I just named.Those three (if I am neglecting the mention of anybody, my apologies) have always stood by us, and we should always do the same.

I'd argue Canada has been a stauncher ally of ours than France, but point well-taken. One only needs to look at our dealings with US support of the Fundamentalists against the USSR in Afghanistan to see where US meddling his returned to punish us.

cry_of_the_banshee

emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
JokerMachine wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.-T. JeffersonHow far we have strayed from the road laid by our Founding Fathers...
Yeah, we've also abolished slavery.Also, "honest friendship" is impossible in politics.
We abolished slavery? Really? Gee, you learn something new every day, I guess.Yes, I am aware of that, but it is not germane to, well, anything really, and frankly it is a bore having that threadbare canard trotted out every single time Jeffersons name is mentioned.You're not seeing the tree for the forest, or however it goes...the obvious point of that quote is the avoidance of becoming involved with other nations government, or allying ourselves with them, while engaging in commerce.
Jefferson's problem, whether he wanted to or not, was that he was just as capable as favoring the French as Hamilton was at favoring the British. Avoiding entangling alliances is sage advice, but early America was too weak not to lean pro-French or pro-British. Still, after the war of 1812 the US position was very safe on the continent, so the founders did something right.

Well, they were none of them perfect, and the quote is not perfect, either.
haveing allies and becoming entangled in their affairs are not precisely the same.
And I would like to ammend my comment above regarding alliances; we need allies, but the conditions of those alliances should be of a mutual nature, not self imposed, and not created exclusively toward dominating spheres of influence.

cry_of_the_banshee

emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
emperorblackdoom wrote
cry of the banshee wrote
Anyway, this could be a good thing. I don't know that much about it, but apparently the Egyptian people (and the Yemen) live under some pretty harsh conditions, under a tinpot 30 year dicator.But, the Islamic Revolution in Iran (this really does remind me of that in many ways) wasn't necessarilly good for the Iranian people.As bad as the Shah was, is the Ayatollah any better?A boot on your neck is still a boot on your neck, regardless of who is wearing it.So, it could be for the worse, as well. I guess only time will tell.Interesting that Mubarak himself refused to step down, though.
Agreed. The Shah was just better for the West.
Yeah but he was bad for his own people.My personal belief is that we should not interfere with other nations' governance, it always comes back to bite us on the ass.The business of America should be doing business, nothing else outside of self-defense or defense of only our truest and staunchest allies (Britain, France, Australia, etc). and I mean only the tried and true, such as the ones I just named.Those three (if I am neglecting the mention of anybody, my apologies) have always stood by us, and we should always do the same.
I'd argue Canada has been a stauncher ally of ours than France, but point well-taken. One only needs to look at our dealings with US support of the Fundamentalists against the USSR in Afghanistan to see where US meddling his returned to punish us.

Yeah, Canada, too.
I knew I was forgetting someone.

Goat

Mohammed El Baradei has joined protesters in Tahrir Square, where he's preparing to speak to the 100,000+ people there. Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood have agreed that the state set up after the revolution will not be based on religion. Am genuinely hopeful that they can institute a free and fair democracy - stories about how one religion defended another during friday prayers are wonderful to hear.

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