Metal Reviews

It's a difficult topic for me on the whole. Israel is definately not without blame, but there is a difference between suicide bombers and airstrikes, however much you try to play it down. Brilliant post, Kayla, you're absolutely right. Ten years ago the media would have been on Israel's side, as a result of Iraq etc they portray the Palestinians as the underdogs now.

I really don't see how you can say that Israel are just as bad as Palestine. Back when Britain ruled the area, and Jewish terrorists were fighting them, did they target civilians? No, they targeted the army. Israel at the moment seems to be doing as much as it can to avoid civilian casualties, which the Palestinians do the opposite.

This isn't a war over religion, Kim. Israel may have been founded as a Jewish state, but it's not at all a religious one. Jews are a race, Muslims aren't. It's a war over land, and when you look at the amount of Islamic soil vs the amount of Jewish, the whole thing seems ridiculous, especially since Olmert's planning to give up most of the West Bank. Ever since Hamas came into power, Gaza has spiralled out of control. Israel's fault? Hardly.

Compared to, say, England vs Ireland, where thousands were massacred by Cromwellian troops, or America vs the Amerindians, Israel's being pretty damn nice. Interesting that the world focuses on this other than East Teamore, say.

And it's interesting as well that certain people who freely criticised Islam for the 7/11 bombings suddenly clamp up when Israel is mentioned. Killing is killing, wherever in the world you are.

As Michael Moore said in one of his books, the Palestinians should be much more Ghandi-like if they want to get anywhere. I'm not without complete pity for them, but when all is said and done, Israel has a right to exist, and an entire continent of people saying that they should be pushed into the sea is not right.

Yeah, suicide bombing takes more balls.

Tell me, what is the difference, morally, between suicide bombing something and bombing it from an aircraft?



The Palestinians should just bend over for Israel and forget all the harm that Israel has done to them? Even if you really think that way, you know it's never gonna happen.

Fuck Michael Moore too.



...Because the old testament says so?

well, it may not be all about religion. But the argument for having the Jewish state in "israel" is still based on the Old Testament, the promised land. Even the Israeli ambassador in Denmark sais so.

But yes, it may seem ridiculous to fight over such a small portion of soil, i'll give you that. But why do jews really need their own country? why can't they just live in the western world as they used to, if religion doesn't matter? ( yes, i know about WW2 but things changed since then)

concerning terrorists.. some of them are products of losing their family etc, bombed/shotted what ever. Once you experience that i wouldn't be surprised if you wanted to take down some of the civillians behind enemy line... of course, Israel can't be blamed if their soldiers at the borders/checkpoints act like jerks on their own, which many do. But this kinds of actions only leads to more violence and fustration from the palestinian side.

and then there is the occupation problem.. which is gettning better now.

as i see it, there's only three ways of solving the problem.. let time heal the palestinian wound, sooner or later they will give up hope getting their country back anyway. Break down the borders and unite both sides and strike down upon hamas and terrorist who only want to make spread chaos and hate ... or nuke both Israel and Palestine, which isn't a very good solution, imo



one last thing, like Sir Wanksalot said: The method of murder determines if you're a terrorist or not... somehow is worse to strap a bomb around your waist and blow yourself and civilian up, than it is to blow civilian up with military force :roll: :? ... imo they're equal, the result is the same, pain and suffering

Yeah, no shit. :roll:



Well, it makes more sense to have it there than in Zaire or wherever they were originally offered! If it was in Africa there'd be just as many problems...

There's still widespread antisemetism across Europe. Things like this happen a lot more frequently than you'd think. And even though some fucked-up old teachings say the Jews will always be outsiders from the rest of the world (hence some Orthodox opposition to Israel, like these fuckers, who actually support Hamas etc!), the idea behind Israel was a place where Jews could go, so the Holocaust would never again happen. And it hasn't really worked, I'll admit, but it deserves a chance.



True...but just as many are brainwashed fools who find the idea of martyrdom appealing. Arafat put millions of dollars aside for himself that should have gone towards his people, the whole Palestinian admin is as corrupt as fuck. Israel's fault? :roll:



Except the civilians aren't the target with the military, so actually there is a hell of a difference.

I love how people ignore the guy who drove a bus through a crowd of people. More to terrorism than suicide bombings...

Isreal lies to the media all of the time. They commit atrocious acts like bombing Palestinian schools, then hide in a corner and play the victim. Isreal has done shit that would definately fall under the terrorism banner, but you never hear about that. I not trying to defend the Palestinians, but if someone came and took your home away for religious bullshit, you would fight back too. It's all a facade that the Israeli government perpetuates to garner sympathy from the Western world. I loathe how the American Govt. blindly takes Israels side, while the Palestinians are demonized in the media on a constant basis.

Sharon was pure scum, and the Israeli government is about as corrupt as it gets. They are just fine with the war and strife, for the ignorant of the world see them as innocent little kittens who've never attacked civilian targets. They attack civilians all of the time, but you'll never see that on the news.

Can you back the bolded bits up with proof?

Sure, there's corruption in the Israeli side, but not as much as there is on the Palestinian.

Sharon was a far better leader than Olmert is...

The American media would have you believe that Palestine is totally wrong, and that the Irealis have every right to bulldoze people out of their homes. The amount of anti-Muslim propaganda we are subjected to is frightning.

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h041202.html
http://www.jamiat.org.za/news/spring/sept19c.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... wmid07.xml

Of course, none of these are from the mainstream sources. Big shock there.

Oooh, I missed this.



The target. Suicide bombers target civilians, airstrikes don't. Morally, the difference between packing yourself full of screws, not nails because they do more damage, walking into a shopping mall and blowing yourself up, and shooting a missile at a terrorist leader or whoever in a car? Be serious.



What harm has Israel done them more than:
a) they've done themselves?
b) other Arab countries have done them?
c) they've dine to the Israelis?

Do tell.

And if it worked for India, why not for them?


No, because the UN says so.

And:



The first source seems pretty anti-Israel, to me. I could argue it, there's a lot of bullshit there, like the "Zionist myth of Masada". Not a myth at all, the place exists.

The second is a pro-Palestinian source. Yes, there are nutters amongst the settlers, the Israeli police generally take care of them.

And the third:



Big fucking deal, a wall fell down. They were responding to attacks from Kassems aimed at residential areas.

Israelis target civilian targets all of the time. I don't think a school for the blind is a military target. Get real.


No, because the UN says so.[/quote]

The UN says so because the Old Testament says so. They have no realistic leg to stand on when they say they are entitled to the land.

See above.



See above. Where else should it be, Africa? :roll:

We're talking about completely different things. Ok, let me rephrase my question: what is the difference, morally, between suicide bombing something and bombing the same target from an aircraft?



I'm not saying that the Palestinians are innocent. I'm just saying that the Israelis aren't innocent either.



I'll just reply to this in a very Zad-like manner...

:roll:

just wanted to comment on Carnifex' post: most of the world doesn't judge Isreal because they 'stole' land, you're right, they bought MOST of it, but other parts were just handed to them by the UK and other European nations. The Palistinians didn't have too much trouble with the newcomers UNTILL they called out the state Israel and seized the little pieces land that wasn't theirs yet in the 6day war. Why? Because they needed water, boo frigging hoo! Ask the palistians water, trade for my part, but never steal land from a muslim community with force, occupy their cities and kill their children, i'm not saying suicide bombings are a good thing, but they had it coming.

huw about these links then?

http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionsob241die.html

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/06/23/isrlpa97.htm

http://www.socialistworld.net/index2.ht ... story.html

Come on, Zad, as if you haven't noticed that the anti-Islam bias in our newspapers is greater than the anti-semitic one.

I'm not going to claim that this is my area of expertise, but in my eyes the fact that every progressive Israeli politician advocates withdrawal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip (and in fact several reactionary ones) seems to be an admission of something.

Since when do Israelis bomb crowds of civilians?



I have never said Israel is completely free from blame.



Well, better than the OT!



If you got invaded, you'd occupy land too. I'm not saying it's right, but you can't use that as a justification for everything since.

Only in regard to the Muslims over here. I'm fucking outraged for those poor bastards that got raided the other day!

Israeli settlers are a completely different barrel of fish. I have no sympathy for them, the take their families out into danger and then whine when they get killed. Idiots. But, as I said, a different thing altogether.

The trouble in Lebanon was due to the Labanese. The Xtians commited the massacre, the IDF had nothing to do with it. As for the rest, again, I never said Israel was without blame.

The solution is simple: Both sides are jackasses. Stop fucking bombing each other and you know, try that talking thing.

Which is precisely what this thread was about in the first place. Hamas broke the cease-fire by blaming the Israelis for something they themselves were responsible for. Fuck 'em.

Couldn't care much fuckin' less!