Metal Reviews

Exactly! Monty Python should be an integral part of this forum.


My family converted, you racist bender.

Mexicans are invading and conquering the US with their willingness to work for nothing an hour! Oes noes!

I was about to say exactly that... 100% agreed, How can you say the land you live in is "yours"? It's not like you own it...

That's not the issue. If they want to come over here and work, fine. The fact that someone is here illegally, and refuses to undertake the immigration process, wants to be eligible for Government programs is what I have an issue with. Get your citizenship and you can have all of that stuff.

I seriously wonder who is more likely to get killed, me with a gun, encountering an armed criminal who is going to steal my laptop, or me without the gun.

I think that criminals are far more likely to kill someone pointing a gun at them, they are crimials and it's their job to handle the gun, so they would have a huge advantage. Even if all criminals still had their guns, wouldn't a society were guns were illegial be safer?

Now that I've returned...this is going to be a long post, I think. Quotes are in bold, with my responses below.


Zad:
And that's an excellent argument for a National Health Service. I fully agree with you, free health care for all is the only way to do things.

I disagree. They'd still be leeching off the system without putting anything in. Nevermind that I would oppose free health care even if we didn't have the mexican problem.


stuartn15ted:
Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?? Think before you type. For a start, in the UK immigrant workers put far more into the economy then they take out of it. Fact. And secondly, your talking about ilegal imigrants leaching off our welfare?? OMG. I'll explain this to you. Because they're ilegally in the country and on a list for deportation, we don't give them benifits.

OMG!!!!!!! Do you know how stupid you sound?!?!?!?!1111

:roll:

I don't live in the UK, which you'd know if you'd read the whole thread. I'm talking about the US. And here, illegals do get benefits. They can put be on Medicaid and get food stamps and section 8 housing. They can steal a social security number and no one asks questions. They can make one up, too. Happens all the time. They walk into government buildings all the time and it's obvious to everyone that they're illegal, and no one does anything about it. That's how they get jobs, too. Even though most illegals get paid under the table, many are not. Sometimes, corporations even help the illegals get fake SS numbers so that it looks like they're playing by the rules on both ends.

errrrmmm......didn't your ancestors have a war with the native indians because they were unhappy with you invading their land??? yes, i remember now, you did. Lets genocide a race because they have an objection to us moving in on their land. Those silly Indians, didn't they realise that it was 'legal'???

My ancestors did no such thing. My family didn't arrive until the late 1800s and early 1900s.
Nevermind that the Indians killed each other as often as white settlers killed them. If the Indians had been able to get over their tribal differences and band together, they probably could have kicked all the whites out. But they didn't.

I don't know a lot about your countrys welfare system. But i can smell bullshit. I find it very odd that your country would give beifits to people who are illigaly in your country, thats just emcouraging them. I think you made that up.

I don't care what you think. What you think doesn't change what it is. :roll: I have personally seen illegals being given and using benefits. Indianapolis has the 5th fastest growing illegal immigrant population (read: mexicans) in the country. Almost every mexican you see here is an illegal. And every damn one of them is living in section 8 housing. If you go to the grocery store, you can wait in line behind a mexican trying to use food stamps while not even understanding English well enough to be able to make the transaction without help. What I said about the hospitals is completely true. Wishard hospital is very much in debt right now because of all the mexicans who go there and don't pay for their ER services. Court rulings also say we must provide free public education to the children of these criminals, at taxpayer expense, of course. Naturally, that depletes the resources available to children who are citizens.

Zad:
Why is there such a huge black market, then? Surely the legal status of guns only adds to that? Sure professionals might, but doesn't DEA mean the riff-raff blacks who get guns by stealing them from houses and shops? REmvoing them would make things harder...

As Eternal Idol said, making it illegal won't make it unobtainable. Drugs is a very good example. People who use drugs don't steal them out of someone else's home. Instead theybuy them from a dealer who had them imported from Columbia. If we make guns illegal, the dealers will just have them imported and continue to sell. And you never answered my question about how criminalising gun ownership is going to solve the problem.

Noodles:
I also find it funny how you're arguing that guns aren't the reason for high murder rates AND that criminals will obtain guns anyways. Not so sure of one of your arguments are we?

Guns are not the reason for high murder rates. People will murder regardless. You don't just decide to go murder someone because you own a gun. You decide to murder someone and THEN you might go buy the gun, or you might use something else. There is not a cause and effect relationship between gun ownership and murder. At best, there might be a weak correlation. I know many people who own guns...none of those people have killed anybody.

Zad:
If no-one had guns except los coppers, how would they get them in the first place?

The same way they get drugs. And the same way they get women and children intended for use as sex slaves.

Radagast:
Yeah fine. I stand by my point of view that having a blanket dislike for a racial group based on a few unpleasant encounters with some of their number is the sign of a sad, twisted little mind. I can only a ssume a white person has never said a bad word to DEA. Only the blacks. And probably the damn Mexicans.

You seem to be confusing a dislike for a group as synonymous with a dislike for each individual in the group. Such is not the case, and I have pointed this out many times already. I do not know why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
I dislike blacks as a group, yes. But there are black individuals who I've found to be okay. Same with Mexicans and Arabs.
I think you are simply reacting to the words you see on the screen, without actually stopping to think about them and consider them. You are too convinced that all your assumptions about me are correct, despite the fact that you've only known me via a message board for less than two weeks. Suit yourself.

FrigidSymphony:
I mean, fuck! making guns illegal for everyone would obviously make it harder for criminals to get them.

Without even considering if what you said about how illegal guns are obtained (I'm not going to go into that, because I don't have the time to look up the statistics on that just now), I would like to know how you think that less guns in circulation would automatically equate to fewer gun crimes. You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, but so far, you haven't shown how the two things are directly linked. You haven't even shown how they are indirectly linked. You can't simply make an assumption that fewer guns means fewer crimes.

Zad:
I think everyone's over the initial "OMG, she ahtes blakz!" phase. Obviously, she has reasons for her feelings, but the plain, bottom line is: hating people because of their race is wrong, whatever half-arsed justifications you can pull out of the air. And that fact isn't being emphasized enough.

Then do I have your permission to dislike them because I disagree with their behaviour and the way they present themselves?

Carnifex Umbris:
As clearly I would have absolutely no reasons of my own to distrust someone who claims to hold extremely prejudicial views about other people based on race, religion, etc. I'm not a knee-jerk liberal, despite going to a women's college in western Massachusetts; hell, going there has actually made me more conservative, because of the extreme levels of hippie bullshit. All I'm saying is that if she feels comfortable hating an entire group of people, it is the height of hypocrisy for her to criticize anyone else for doing something similar.

As Eyesore said earlier, I was merely pointing out that the pot was calling the kettle black.

Zad:
Rational behaviour is being wary of blacks because they verbally harass you.

Irrational behaviour is phrases like 'mexicans invading' and the belief that a gun-toting nation is safer than one that is gun-free.

So it's irrational for me to think illegal immigrants are bad for the country and that banning guns is not the answer, despite the fact that I am probably more well read on both the issues than you are?

Eternal Idol:
If someone is willing to kill another person over merely losing their temper, then guns aren't an issue. That person is obviously fucked up. That person could also just as easily pick up a knife instead. Hell, just today, a hooker was found dead cuz some fuckwad shoved a cellphone down her throat. You can make a weapon out of just about anything, you ban one and someone will make another.

My point exactly.

Zad:
But guns make it a hell of a lot easier. A person that could kill with a gun won't necessarily walk over and strangle the other person. What, just because they might kill people anyway, might as well let them do it with guns? RUBBISH!

How do guns make it easier? Wouldn't it be easier to grab a knife out of the drawer than to walk over and unlock the gun cabinet? Wouldn't it be easier to grab the chainsaw out of the garage? Or better yet, wouldn't it be easier just to beat someone senseless with your fists? You've clearly never even contemplated being in a situation where you might have to fight for your life.

If someone broke into my apartment right now and I had to kill him, what would I do? do you think I'd sit here and lament the fact that I don't have a gun? No, I would probably grab one of my weights and bash the bastard's face in with it. Or strangle him with one of the many cables I have by my feet while kicking him in the balls. Or maybe I could ram the heel of my hand into his nose so that it will shatter into his brain and kill him. If I made it to the kitchen, I might grab a knife. Anything can become a weapon if necessary. Even if I had a gun, it most likely wouldn't be sitting on my desk right next to me, and therefore, not the best choice for a weapon. It's only useful if you can get to it.

Eternal Idol:
That's not the issue. If they want to come over here and work, fine. The fact that someone is here illegally, and refuses to undertake the immigration process, wants to be eligible for Government programs is what I have an issue with. Get your citizenship and you can have all of that stuff.

You forgot to mention spreading diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis, and hepatitis, among others. Diseases that, if they tried to enter the country legally, would prevent them from getting in until they could prove that they are healthy.

But of course, we must be PC and feel sorry for the poor immigrant's plight and not show any concern for the fact that our own people are being infected with diseases that were non-existant here prior to the invasion. :roll:

Misha:
I think that criminals are far more likely to kill someone pointing a gun at them, they are crimials and it's their job to handle the gun, so they would have a huge advantage.

They would shoot you only if you're being stupid with the gun. You don't pull a gun on someone to threaten them. You only show it if you intend to use it. And then you HAVE to use it without hesitation or you will be dead.

I think a lot of people have this idea in their heads that simply threatening someone with a weapon is going to be enough to get them to back off their attack. That is not the case. You can usually tell if someone is bluffing or not.

The criminal, if you shoot first. The thing is, DEA doesn't want a gun to protect her property, she wants it to protect herself. If you're being robbed, you should always give them what they want - even a $1500 laptop isn't worth your life. DEA's issue is a bit more clear-cut; if someone wants to hurt her, there's no way to give them what they want without, well, getting hurt or killed. Personally, I'm very pro-gun control, but in her situation, given her description of her neighborhood, wanting a handgun is definitely understandable. I'd just be worried about the attacker getting the gun away from her and using it against her. I've shot innumerable targets, but shooting something living, especially a person, is a different matter.
DEA, you talk of shooting out someone's kneecaps from a distance, but that sort of precision is incredibly hard to get, especially in a situation where the other person is moving and you're in fear for your safety or life. I couldn't do it, and I shot competitively for four years. You're probably better off with the pepper spray, and if there's anywhere to take self-defense courses near you, you might want to look into it. Especially if they're geared toward women; my school has a class like that, and it doesn't really bother with martial arts forms so much as simply being able to make sure you stay safe.

That's been answered several times - if they can't get them, they can't sell them.



Umm... what?



Less guns = less guns. What's hard to understand here?



You don't need my permission, girlie. Either way, it won't change you, will it, so what's the point of saying so?



I'm sure you spend hours looking deeply into the problem. I said earlier illegal immigrants are a problem, and - come on , they're two different topics. No-one's saying that guns = illegal immigrants.



You scare me. Guns go bang, bullets travel distances, knifes don't.

You hit the nail on the head, a lot of people have wrong ideas about the usage of guns, including me. That is exactly what would get me killed, sould I try to shoot OR threaten an armed criminal with a gun.

I'll never own a gun. I'd most definitely shoot someone...within a week.

Various tribes waged war, yes, but the white settlers committed genocide. I say this as someone with roots in both camps.



It simply irked me that I'm not allowed to dislike racists, but you're allowed to dislike blacks.



I'm not sure where you're getting that last part; all those diseases have been here for centuries. Armadillos are a far greater carrier of leprosy than illegal immigrants, and kids are still immunized against TB.
Not that I'm a great supporter of illegal immigration, but more for economic reasons.

but guns are a lot easier to use, they do a lot more damage, and if you have a gun and the other person doesnt they have very, very little chance of fighting back. Compare that to a knife where you have to be pretty much within striking distance of their hands to use it.

You were not talking about the US.

Don't try and change what you said. And i know you live in the US, thats why i said i don't know a lot about your countrys welfare system, remember???


you missed the point. Your saying that a mexican has no right to come to your country for a better life when your country is founded on the same thing. Its very hypocritcal. And its illreivant when your family moved over, the killing of the Native Americans is a part of your countrys history. I used the example of the Indians to illustrate that you country is founded on immigration and that legality has nothing to do with it. If it did i think the indians would still be alive.

ok, this is what i meant. Prove it. No anecdotes. statistics, facts and figues are the tools you use when trying to prove a point. I want to know if the US gives benifits to illegal immigrats.

Carnifex Umbris:
DEA, you talk of shooting out someone's kneecaps from a distance, but that sort of precision is incredibly hard to get, especially in a situation where the other person is moving and you're in fear for your safety or life. I couldn't do it, and I shot competitively for four years. You're probably better off with the pepper spray, and if there's anywhere to take self-defense courses near you, you might want to look into it. Especially if they're geared toward women; my school has a class like that, and it doesn't really bother with martial arts forms so much as simply being able to make sure you stay safe.

I just used knees as an example. I would aim for whatever was my best target at the moment. Shoulder, stomach, nuts...whatever.

I do have pepper spray and I have taken self defense. But pepper spray is only good if my back is to the wind and I have enough to shoot it at all the attackers. And if I can get to it. Right now, I carry it in my backpack, because I still haven't figured out how to conceal it on me in a way that is easy for me to get to it. It's too big to fit into my pockets. :(

As for self defense...I'm a pretty damn good kicker if I do say so myself, but I'm not good enough at martial arts stuff to be able to fight off multiple attackers. I might be able to get away from just one, but that's a big if. My problem is that I have a very difficult time putting on muscle, so I'm not as strong as I'd like to be, even though I work out regularly.

This is why I want a more deadly weapon, because I'm afraid that if I get into a bad situation, the chances of me coming out of it are not so good, the way it stands now. I'd feel better if I knew that I could resort to killing the guy if I had to. Wouldn't be my first choice, but if it has to be me or him, I'd prefer it not be me. I'm sure you understand.

Zad:
That's been answered several times - if they can't get them, they can't sell them.


That's not an answer. How is banning guns going to prevent them from getting guns? Once they have them, how will that law prevent them from selling them? What makes you think criminals are going to give a damn about gun laws when they don't give a damn about any other laws?

About the women and children being used as sex slaves...well, it is illegal to force someone into slavery/prostitution/whatever, but it still happens. Women and children are smuggled here from other countries and then forced to work in the sex trade. Like drugs, it is illegal, but it happens.

I'm sure you spend hours looking deeply into the problem. I said earlier illegal immigrants are a problem, and - come on , they're two different topics. No-one's saying that guns = illegal immigrants.

Actually I spend more than two hours, probably. I don't have a job, so I get to stay home all day and play on the internet while Tyrion goes to work. And since I don't drive, there's really no place else for me to go to do something else. So here I sit, reading pretty much everything I can find on such subjects. And thus, I become more knowledgeable on them than most people, as most people don't have anywhere near as much free time as I have.

And I know they are two different issues. I wasn't trying to equate them.

You scare me. Guns go bang, bullets travel distances, knifes don't.

Throwing knives do. Besides, guns don't always kill. You have to hit a vital organ and even then, you can still live if you get treatment right away.
My sister had a crazy boyfriend who once shot himself in the stomach three times and lived to tell about it, and he didn't even get treatment immediately. Was at least half an hour before the ambulance came and brought him to the hospital.

Carnifex Umbris:
It simply irked me that I'm not allowed to dislike racists, but you're allowed to dislike blacks.

Kind of like it irked me that I'm not allowed to dislike blacks, but you're allowed to dislike racists?

I'm not sure where you're getting that last part; all those diseases have been here for centuries. Armadillos are a far greater carrier of leprosy than illegal immigrants, and kids are still immunized against TB.
Not that I'm a great supporter of illegal immigration, but more for economic reasons.

Those diseases have been around for centuries but were pretty much vanquished in this country until illegals started bringing them across the border. So now we are seeing a rise in diseases like tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease. Many instances of new cases are linked to illegals.
From WorldNetDaily:

"Chagas disease, also called American trypanosomiasis or "kissing bug disease," is transmitted by the reduviid bug, which prefers to bite the lips and face. The protozoan parasite that it carries, Trypanosoma cruzi, infects 18 million people annually in Latin America and causes 50,000 deaths. The disease also infiltrates America's blood supply. Chagas affects blood transfusions and transplanted organs. No cure exists. Hundreds of blood recipients may be silently infected."


"Leprosy, also known as Hansen's disease, was so rare in America that in 40 years only 900 people were afflicted. Suddenly, in the past three years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy. Leprosy now is endemic to northeastern states because illegal aliens and other immigrants brought leprosy from India, Brazil, the Caribbean and Mexico."

"Dengue fever is exceptionally rare in America, though common in Ecuador, Peru, Vietnam, Thailand, Bangladesh, Malaysia and Mexico. Recently, according to the report, there was a virulent outbreak of dengue fever in Webb County, Texas, which borders Mexico. Though dengue is usually not a fatal disease, dengue hemorrhagic fever routinely kills."

"Polio was eradicated from America, but now reappears in illegal immigrants as do intestinal parasites, says the report."

"Malaria was obliterated, but now is re-emerging in Texas."

It should be noted that the TB that illegals are bringing is a drug resistant strain.

And you can find all kinds of info on the diseases illegals are spreading just by doing a simple search for something like "diseases illegal immigrants". Pretty much every site a search like that will bring up will tell you exactly what I just quoted.

And, CU, I also oppose illegal immigration for economic reasons. However, I think that health reasons are something that are often overlooked, but an important issue, nonetheless. I certainly don't want to get any of those diseases, and I bet you don't either.

Noodles:
but guns are a lot easier to use, they do a lot more damage, and if you have a gun and the other person doesnt they have very, very little chance of fighting back. Compare that to a knife where you have to be pretty much within striking distance of their hands to use it.

Which is why I'd like to have a gun. ;)

Course, if someone was bent on killing me, I think I'd like them to just shoot me instead of trying to bludgeon me with the nearest object.

Have you tried wearing those silly pants with the big cargo pockets? (I've never worn a pair of those in my life, of course, and certainly did not spend most of my senior year of high school in them). In all seriousness, I know there are canisters that fit on key rings; have you looked at those, at least for a backup? Also, if you can find a defense class that teaches you how to use a kubaton (which is a small, heavy stick that goes on a key ring), that might be worth looking into as well.

As for the racism thing, you, or anyone else, can think whatever you like, even if I don't like it myself. I simply reserve the right to do the same.

In a perfect world, probably so. That world does not exist though. People are fucked up and do some really sick things, sometimes for no reason at all.

I never knew that murder was easy. I also never knew that legislation and banning things made them automatically go away. I repeat for the 10,000th time, Marijuana was BANNED, Cocaine was BANNED, yet I can still get them. You don't seem to understand, simply making guns illegal won't make them go away. People will still get them. It's a nice little fairy tale where everything you make illegal just simply vanishes into thin air, but that's not how things work. It's called organized crime for a reason, and sometimes those organizations reach very high places. They can make things happen, for they have the right clout. Plus you can't inspect every single crate that comes in off of a boat. Automatic weapons are indeed illegal in this country, yet they come in by the thousands every single day. The ban changed nothing.

Looks like you get your very own reply, Stuart.

You were not talking about the US.

I was talking about the US. I mentioned the UK and the Arabs because I know that is where Zad lives. I never claimed to know anything about your welfare system. Perhaps your government is more diligent in tracking such criminals down and deporting them. Mine is not.

you missed the point. Your saying that a mexican has no right to come to your country for a better life when your country is founded on the same thing. Its very hypocritcal. And its illreivant when your family moved over, the killing of the Native Americans is a part of your countrys history. I used the example of the Indians to illustrate that you country is founded on immigration and that legality has nothing to do with it. If it did i think the indians would still be alive.

I didn't miss the point. The illegals do not have a right to be here. If they don't want to go through legal channels, then they should not come here and those that do should be deported immediately. More needs to be done to get them out of the country, including revoking the citizenship of their anchor babies.

Let me ask you this. Do you think it is fair that illegals are being allowed to walk across the border and obtain benefits and being offered the chanceto stay legally, while all the people around the world who decided to do it legally from the start are still waiting for residency visas years after they've applied?

To come here legally is a very long and tedious process. You have to have someone to sponsor you, which basically means you have to be coming as a student (in which, case you must leave when you graduate), find an employer willing to say there is no one but you that can do the job they want, or marry an American citizen. No one is allowed to just walk in and make a life here and bring their whole family along. (Except illegals, of course).

Now, there's an order of preference in who gets visas when they legally apply. First priority usually goes to spouses or minor children, followed parents and adult siblings, and such. Anyway, back in 2003, I had married a man from Poland. We lived apart for a long time and never saw each other because they would not grant him a visa, saying that I didn't make enough money to support the both of us. The rationale for this is that they don't want people coming here and going on welfare, so you have to make x-amount of money, depending on how many people you are trying to bring over. Illegals, of course, get around this requirement. Well, anyway, he was never able to come here and the distance pretty much ruined the relationship, so we called it quits and went our seperate ways. This is not at all an uncommon scenario for legal immigrants. I've read many stories from other people who went through or are going through the same thing...the bureacracy of it all takes years. Once here, you have to be a resident for something like 10 years before you can even apply for citizenship.

Now tell me...why should illegals get more benefits than people who are not breaking the law? If they want to come here, why shouldn't they have to follow the same channels everyone else does? They are taking the easy way in and then expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. They riot in our streets demanding for citizenship and amnesty and more benefits. They form racist hate groups like La Raza and Atzlan and talk about how they're going to take over the country and oust the white people. They think they're entitled to more than anyone else is. This country doesn't need anymore people like that. Let them go back to Mexico where they belong. The only immigrants that ought to be welcomed here are people who will contribute to society, not take away from it and plot to overthrow the people who are providing for them.

ok, this is what i meant. Prove it. No anecdotes. statistics, facts and figues are the tools you use when trying to prove a point. I want to know if the US gives benifits to illegal immigrats.

Well, first I will give you some statistics and then try to explain how they are getting these things.

The Center for Immigration Studies has compiled a list of costs attributed to illegal immigrants, based on data from the Census.

The largest costs they reported come from Medicaid (a government subsidised health program for the poor) which rings in at $2.5 billion annually. Next comes medical treatment for the uninsured (that's those ER visits I was talking about) at $2.2 billion annually. Following that are food assistance programs, like food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches at $1.9 billion annually. And of course, illegals commit crimes and go to prison instead of being deported, and that costs $1.6 billion each year. Next is federal aid to schools (remember how I said we have to educate illegals in public schools?) at $1.4 billion. These are only the largest costs, btw. There are also other costs associated with programs like Social Security, Medicare, in-state tuition and other such programs.

Illegal immigrants create a fiscal deficit of $10.3 billion, because they pay only $16 billion in taxes, but cost the government $26.3 billion. Granting them amnesty would raise costs to $29 billion, because they would have increased access to services.

Now...how are they getting these, you wanted to know? Well, firstly the government just doesn't care. Normally, you'd think a government exists to serve the interests of its citizens, but politicans in America seem to have forgotten that. Besides trying to thwart the Minutemen, they're perfectly willing to cater to the demands of the illegals and do so often. Many state courts have ruled that it is unconstitutional to deny benefits to illegals and force taxpayers to subsidise them. Some states have tried to pass laws to bar illegals from getting benefits and had their laws overturned by the courts. In other words, boters don't get a voice on the issue.

But more importantly is the clause in the 14th Amendement of the Constitution that says anyone born on US soil is automatically a US citizen. What many illegals are doing is coming here and having their babies. These "anchor babies" allow the whole family to stay AND receive benefits. Because the baby is a citizen, their families are automatically eligible to claim benefits. In other words, they're abusing a loophole. They can pick up thousands of dollars in benefits just by having an anchor baby. And there's not a damn thing citizens can do about it.

I hate cargo pants. :p

When I was deciding what kind of pepper spray to buy, I considered the key chain kind, but was advised by many people to get a bigger size because the key chain kinds often do not have enough in them to be effective.

And you can certainly think whatever you like. I'm sure we will rarely agree on anything, anyway. ;) Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, though. No hard feelings.

No hard feelings. My thought about the keychain spray was more to give you time to get out the big one, if accessibility is an issue.