Metal Reviews

as you said, the NSBM stuff came with their last album... so it represents their actual thoughts and convictions... therefore I don't see why we cannot judge them by it.... :evil:

Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer ... judge them all you like by it. Heck, do whatever you want, I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone how to think. However, I personally think it's shortsighted to judge all of their albums based on this single aspect of one album, recent or not.

-Tyrion

I thought this was a quality editorial- Alex did single out Nokturnal Mortum, but I think it was an excellent choice. From my understanding, the point of the article was to show the mixed feelings you can have about a band.. where do you draw the line between music and content? Nokturnal Mortum was a great example because they have phenomenal music, yet they also have (at least on the new album) anti-semetic content. If you don't agree with their anti-semetic views, but you like the music, what do you do? That was the question addressed in the editorial.

I don't think you can have a non-Nazi NSBM band. Sure, there are elements of patriotism, nationalism, etc. in NSBM, but it also contains a lot of white-power, pro-aryan messages as well. If you only talk about national pride, you'd just be patriotic black metal, and if you just want to return to your pagan roots, you'd be viking metal, or pagan metal. When you add in the elements of white-power, and the anti-jew stance, you become NSBM, regardless of the other themes you bring up in your music.

You can't make a distinction between National Socialsim and Nazism because they are the same thing. "Nazi" is an abbreviation.

A national socialist is not a socialist who is patriotic.

And arguing that they are different because all National Socialists want to do is preserve their cultural roots is ridiculous. Thats exactly what Hitler wanted to do with the Aryans. It just so happened that to do that he felt he needed to exterminate the jews. :roll:

Which is exactly what those lyrics in the editorial where saying the "Slavonic Aryans" should be doing.

And no, goregrind lyrics are not more offensive. Everyone knows those lyrics a tongue in cheek, and cannibal corpse do not want to butcher people at birth. However, it is still unclear how many BM bands are actually Nazi's.

Anyway, I'm all for listening to music REGARDLESS of the message behind it. But in these cases I certainly wouldn't give them any money for it.

OK, so I am gone for a day on a business trip, Philip hooks the forums back up .... and .... I believe I should be answering since I started this discussion. I can't possibly go back and answer you all with quotes, so please bear with me and accept this format.
To Gast1: Your quote from Amon Amarth's "Victorious March" (my fav song by them, BTW) is the most accurate. My wife, who is no metal fan, just cringes when she hears this and always asks me to turn them off. It does come off strong, no question. The only reason I can think off - if you watched Vikings with Kirk Douglas - that is how the warfare was waged back then. The Norsemen were in both protective and attacking mode at the same time - protecting themselves from anything Christian (including konungs who were converting) and raiding the wealth where possible. Not that it is any excuse but when Christians were catching "barbarians" they threw them in wolf pit, executed them in many other various ways.

To Desolate: Let's not argue about the technicalities of history. You say Year 988, I say around 980, not close enough? Some of the stories you point I forgot/intentionally chose to omit due to me being too long already. I remembered about Olga, but I really think "marrying the Byzantium's emperor's daughter" was a pretext, not true reason which was - the need to establish the trade, and the need to establish alliances in the face of Pecheneg and Polovets tribes. At least we both agree that it was Vladimir who establish Christianity in Rus - the main point of my historical digress.
To quote you:"And NSBM bands NEVER appreciated Hitler's deeds (maybe except Jew extermination)." Not the reason enough for you to reject at least a part of their ideology?
Why are you surprised I know Russian? I know Ukrainian too.

To WinterIsComing: Hi brother, never thought I would meet another Kievite here. All Kievaits are brothers. Ever need anything - drop me a line, I am serious. Where did you used to live in Kiev? I lived on Brest-Litovskiy Prospekt by M Nivki. LOved your comments on the thread.
P.S. Sorry if I mislead or disappoint you with the title/content. I guess I wasn't broad in my subject.

To Husker: I enjoy the music too, that is why I wrote what I did.

To Kathaarian: You are more than entitled to your beliefs and expressions of national pride. Just don't understand what a call to exterminate somebody/anybody has to do with it.

To Rio: I think Gast1 tried to explain the "difference". I honestly find it less than that, sorry Gast1. I think NSBM, while expressing the ideas of inner strength and natioonal pride, borrow a bit too much from the book of NSDAP (abbreviation for Nazi party). And that makes me very uncomfortable.

To Valefor: I detect a hint of anger. It feels like you have an issue with my editorial, and my point of view. Let me explain first why I wrote what I did (although few others Husker, Shiten Doji) hit the nail right on the head. I wrote this through one sleepless night because of my kids being sick. I was tired/angry. Put on Nokturnal Mortum to immerse myself in the music. And while I was listening to the music (Goat Horns and NeHhrist were two albums I played) the thought occurred to me and I decided to share it - I guess I have this privilege by simply a fact I am a constant contributor to MR. Now, here is the MAIN THOUGHT of my editorial - when I love the music, but disagree with the lyrics, but especially when those lyrics are ideological in nature - HOW DO I RECONCILE IT IN MY HEAD? (Shiten Doji is one perceptive Japanese) How in the hell is this a sermon? What am I prophesizing, and where am I telling people how to think??? Why did I single out NSBM? SOmehow I get a feeling you thought I wanted to "attack that single facet of the extreme metal".My answer - because that what I was listening to at the time, and it was SPECIFICALLY Nokturnal Mortum (yes, the site needs a review of this band) that put me face to face with the dilemma I tried to outline - love the music, can't accept the lyrics. Why can't I accept them, why do they make me uncomfortable? Because the ideology contained in those lyrics is unacceptable to me. Why didn't I do the same with other genres? Multiple reasons - goregrind, I don't like the music, so I can't comment; death metal (love the music) - I think it is shock value, hyperbolized disgust with reality and tongue-in-cheek humor those lyrics are about. WIth NSBM it is different - many of these guys believe in white power, pro-aryan stuff, jew extermination, etc. Does Cannibal Corpse believe in what is said on Butchered at Birth? Doubt it.
Back to the sermon point. I wrote three editorials on this site. Two of them had some non-musical points, which, sadly, I think, you both missed. Go ahead, check out my editorial on "My Sad Reflection on the State of the World". My point there - Metal is an awesome power that can unite (call me an idealist). An awesome Israeli band Orphaned Land performs for Israelis and Arabs, writes lyrics in Hebrew and Arabic. An awesome Palestinian band Melechesh has to be appreciated by whatever ethnicity you are. How is that not an awesome unification point?! In the forums on that editorial ... you brought up PNAC, Mossad - the terrorists, Zionism, etc. - want me to paste a copy here? I debated you fair and square, until you, impolitely so, said "whatever OK". Now, current editorial is about personal conflict (in MY head, mind you), did I even touch the world politics, governments, (like I did last time). Yes, I choose NSBM as an example, maybe I was subjective about it ... and you again bring up Zionism, Mossad, etc. Who is sermonizing? Who is repeating the same message? As they say - one time is an occurence, two times is a coincidence, three times is a trend. You think we are at a coincidence level? I think you have an issue and if there is a shred of something where you feel your "issue" is touched it comes out REGARDLESS the editorial point. Disagree?
To answer your direct question - Yes, Zionism is bad, and so is any other religious/ethnic/personal belief that pushes a one human type superiority over another, especially when one calls for extermination of the other.
P.S. Nokturnal Mortum music rules. SOme of the best "product" Ukraine produced musically.
P.P.S. I have debated (in MY head again) for three days whether to share my inner feelings with the rest of the MR reading world. I knew some would not see my point for what it was.

To Tyrion: Yes, I am TER fan, and not ashamed of it, these guys put out some of the most profound music around that touches my soul in more ways than one. I could have been "selective" with the Nokturnal Mortum albums and lyrics - I guess we are all subjective when we want to make a point, and for that I apologize. Thanks for the TER-Nokturnal Mortum relationship facts.

To zadsterboombox: Don't think Amon Amarth are secret Aryan wannabes, you are safe here, but I doubt you would feel welcome at Graveland concert.

So you want to forget about everything Hitler did too, destroying the Jewish culture?

I honestly still don't see difference, as Desolate put out, the pagan beliefs were oppressed the same way, although they did not have a chance to do something back like the Vikings. For some reason no one cares if it's the christians charged, but when it's the jews, everybody goes nuts and calls it racism. I myself prefer lyrics about nature like Woods Of Ypres and Ulver, but if I have no choice than I don't mind. I thoroughly reject anything that has to do with patriotism in a political way, thus nationalism, racism and even why we all go nuts when our nation's footballteam wins/loses.

The Nazi rationale was heavily invested in the militarist belief that great nations grow from military power, which in turn grows "naturally" from "rational, civilized cultures." Hitler's calls appealed to disgruntled German Nationalists, eager to save face for the failure of World War I, and to salvage the militaristic nationalist mindset of that previous era. After Austria's and Germany's defeat of World War I, many Germans still had heartfelt ties to the goal of creating a greater Germany, and thought that the use of military force to achieve it was necessary. National Socialism sums up this idea: the raising of a nation through militairy power which would reform in the strength, valor, pride thing Valefor meniotned earlier.

Many placed the blame for Germany's misfortunes on those whom they perceived, in one way or another, to have sabotaged the goal of national victory. Jews and communists became the ideal scapegoats for Germans deeply invested in a German Nationalist ideology, for they were seen as the minority that could weaken a civilisation, through dissimulating the unite. Hitler made then scapegoats, but they are not part of the nationalistic ideas he came up with in the first place. Nazis are National Socialists, but National Socialists are not therefore Nazis.

Like with satanism that is inherited in most black metal lyrics, there are few bands really believing in the rituals and worshipping they speak of, same goes for viking metal, they want to return to the viking time to be able to fight the christians aside their ancestors (untill they discover that the path of a hero is not made of roses), but they don't want to fight nowadays christians. I take NSBM lyrics in the same approach.

I hope it's all clear now.

You'd probably be better off explaining Hitler's rise to power than me. I'll just leave it at that, although I am still not clear on many points.

When I think of Amon Amarth I think of them almost as a "historical reference" band. Everything I read in their lyrics, in their interviews (I think I read three long ones to date) does not strike as a "call to arms" now. They are almost describing the violent history clash of the pagan North and advancing Christianity - ugly and violent as it might have been. An interview with Graveland in Pit Magazine, on the other hand, is an appeal to start the Holocaust TOMORROW, ASAP. Do I make my point clear?

While no doubt Amon Amarth lyrics describe, but again not incite, violence against Christians, they have songs like Fate of Norns. WHen I heard it/read the booklet I cried. It is about a Viking burying his son. I wish you never go through what I did. I had to bury my firstborn song - and Fate of Norns resonated so much with me I am still shivering every time I put that CD in my player. It just reached me on oh so personal level.

Also wanted to say - here is an example of a patriotic band not looking for scapegoats - Windir.

I think we almost agree then. The song Fate Of Norns touched me as well, while I have no reference in my life so far dealing with a similar experience. Still Amon Amarth in not a historical reference, for they always sing out of their own perspective, and how THEY rape and destroy (and mostly in present time too), but as I explained, they do not want to project this image on a future or present basis. Graveland is something different, as you said, Rob Darken is a total Nazi, and I'm not trying to defend him or something. I think I made clear that there is a Nazi group under the name of NSBM, and a group that has more reason to their ideology. Graveland could be counted to the first. It's the difference between liking Hitler's ideas, and his actions, if one likes his deeds, then he likes his ideas too, but not the other way around...

Alex-
Go ahead and "cut and paste"... I have never said anything that contradicts my position; where have I stated that I have an issue with Jews? Sounds kind of like you feel you have something on me...
You talk about coincidence... two of ypur ed pieces discuss this very topic, yet when there is a discussion, initiated by YOU, you point your finger and say I have an issue...
As for the political references, are you saying that I cannot speak my mind on the subject? It is an interesting subject, and ties in with NS. And, yes Israel has way too much influence on American policy, oops! can I say that?
Actually, you come across as the angry one, as well as defensive, and I never left ANY debate, with whatever, ok...
I bring up Zionism because it is not much different tham NS, why are you all bunched up about a discussion on this?
I will say it again I DO NOT CARE WHAT RACE A PERSON IS IF THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS!!! I JUDGE PEOPLE ON THEIR CHARACTER, NOT THERE RACE! CLEAR???
And death/gore may or may not be tongue-in-cheek, but how is it funny? If the ed. as about Nokturnal mortum, you should have named it something a little more representative of the topic.
Your ed. was one-sided and does not cover the subject in a balanced way... if you think rape and murder and pedophilia, and songs about wasting faggots is just funny, than you got problems...
that shit happens every day; turn on the news once in a while.
I wasn't angry before, but I am now more than a little irratated.
V.

I don't think it's necessarily the fault of religion itself that it's lead to so much killing and anger over the centuries. Back in the 1600s, religious wars were all too common because people believed anybody who had differing views on the existence of God was considered "blasphemous." If you lived in the 1600s and dared contradict somebody's religion, you were basically executed on the spot! Even today, there are tons of religious wars going on, particularly in the middle east. But you can't fault religion itself for it. You fault the people who take their particular religion so much to heart that they can't accept somebody else's religion.

As for anti-religion in metal music. For the record, I think a lot of it is because it's mostly religious cults that slam metal music - which is how it's been already since Black Sabbath. I've always figured a lot of metal bands, due to the genre's rebellious nature, decided to "feed in" to the anti-metal music attitude most religious cults have by purposely making their music "anti-religious." As a fairly religious person myself, I don't find anything wrong with a lot of metal music and I think many of these religious cults are narrow-minded assholes trying to show off what devout Christians they are by slamming anything that isn't constantly singing/talking about "loving Jesus." Still, I think a lot of black metal in particular is pathetic for the way there's so much publicity involved with it (look at us, we're so eeeevil and hardc0re!). So basically, you have two extremes in this case.

Organized religion has a lot of scamming and propaganda, but really, it isn't as terrible as a lot of metal bands make it out to be. If you're all atheists, that's fine. I don't care. And I'm glad to see Alex give a fairly reasonable back up for his beliefs. But seriously, the rest of you should ask yourselves something: Are you sincerely anti-religious? Or do your anti-religious beliefs just stem from your love of metal music and the fact that these aforementioned religious cults are constantly slamming the genre (which I do feel is the case for a lot of "metalheads")?

Interesting points, but I am truly an atheist, not atheist for metal sakes. It is because of the place and time of my birth, the way I was brought up and an occupation as a scientist - chemist.

I really don't see where am I cutting and pasting? Just to make sure I will keep this quote of yours intact. Both of my editorials discuss THIS VERY TOPIC? Care to define THIS VERY TOPIC? You mean they are written about the same subject? I'd give you the fact that I am not a journalist, I am not a native English speaker, and I don't know how to title my editorials properly. But, please, man, don't you believe me when I say they are written about DIFFERENT subjects? At least I meant it to be DIFFERENT.
First editorial - Metal as a possible unifiying force between something that can be so divisive as race, ethnicity, political, religious beliefs, etc.
This one - How I personally can't reconcile music that I like with the words said along with it. (please, read again Shuten Doji post - he expressed it almost better than I did).
Sounds like two different subjects to me - sorry if the titles are misleading. The ed is NOT about Nokturnal Mortum, which I said I consider one of the best musical products Ukraine produced.
What I was trying to say that you, both times, brought up much more political content to the subject than I originally meant - this is my MAIN point of the previous response to you. Of course, you have the right to speak your political beliefs. I think you are exercising this right in full once my ed appears, which let me assure you, will not happen any time soon again, and may be never. It is just REGARDLESS OF WHAT I WANT or MEAN to SAY - you are bringing up the same political subject (UN resolutions, Mossad, etc.) and that makes me wonder how angry/invested/concerned/upset you are with this subject. Am I angry? No. Defensive, maybe. Who wouldn't be when you jump all over it with 6-7 posts calling this a "sermon", "what is really the subject here?" etc. I am not a perfect or righteous individual, so I tend to analyze myself and what I said after people voice their opinions. You are calling it defensive - maybe you are right.
Death metal lyrics - when did I ever say they are funny? I think you are ascribing me the words I didn't say. Please "cut and paste" so I can see it.
Even though you really didn't discuss the subject of my editorial in your latest response, again, I will meet you and discuss with you how I feel about your political beliefs. See how different we really are.
Zionism - bad, racism of any kind - bad, anti-semitism - bad, religious self-righteousness - bad : general points.
Specific Israel related points: settlers in Palestine - very bad, suicide bombers - bad but I see how they are desperate, Arabs startiing the war back in 1947 - very bad, annexation in 1967 - bad, UN resolutions against Israel - have a point, but without a single resolution condemning suicide bombing they lose that point, Mossad behind terrorsit acts - believe all you want in that conspiracy theory I don't, Israeli influence on American policy - bad, makes it one-sided, I hope there will be more evenhandedness, Arafat's death - good, gives hope, current events - give hope, pullout in Gaza - good, if not tied up to the land grab in the future, independent Palestinian state - good, Israel reparations to displaced Palestianians - good, and should be a part of the eventual deal, German, Austrian and Swiss reparations to Jews displaced/killed in WWII - need to happen, but I don't see it happenning, some Israeli settlements remaining in West Bank - not so good, but will be a fact and a part of life new Plaestinian state will have to accept and compromise about, peace for land concept - may be unique in that conflict situation, and could be the only way to resolve the conflict, orthodox Jews claiming Eretz Israel - bad, Hamas claiming there should be no state of Israel - bad, a single suicide bombing after the deal is reached - inexcusable, American government, especially, this incarnation - bad.
Your love for your country - great, my love for your country - so strong I have accepted the US citizenship this past December and I am honored to be an American who can make a difference. Therefore it is not just "your" country, it is "our" country now. BTW, how do you feel about that?
OK, so I have abandoned the subject of my editorial to meet you and discuss with you political points, but trust me the last time we had a stately debate about my editorial you simply left it hanging. That I can "cut and paste" for you to prove my point, but I don't have time for it now, and it is in the past, but how you left it last time did leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

BTW, don't think I am complaining or anything, as busy as my life is I have stuck with it and continue to contribute to MR. Don't know your life circumstances, but, man, didn't you have a chance to do the same? You would have a platform to express any views you wanted - poltical, metal, NSBM, death metal, reviews of the bands you like, maybe you could be first to write a Nokturnal Mortum review here, you name it. We could have run two editorials - mine and yours - alongside.

Now - if you consider this to be too long - you are probably right. This took away half of my day at work - a luxury I would never afford to give away. I doubt I will type anything this long again on this forum, I don't mean any disrespect to the opposing debating side, I am not bowing out, but I simply can't afford it.

Hilter was ambitious in a stupid way alright. AKA on speed.



I'm pretty sure that Darken's views on Clinton are Capitalist=Jew. Maybe I'm looking too much into the despise for the Jewish Media.

Nationale Sozialistische Arbeiterpartei

National Socialist Workers Party

Nazi comes from the German pronounciation of Nationale (Not-see-oh-nall ie NAZI-O-nale).

Yes, they may be different, but that's what's read immediatly. So, it's a mistake that can mistook, no harm no foul.

Well, first off BM is everybodies favorite whipping boy, and once again it got singled out.
Like I said I actually have strong feelings about the crimes committed by Israel, as well as the ones committed by my own country in the past... NS and Zionism to me are the same coin.
Why does a condemnation of Israel's policy leave a bitter taste in your mouth? There is more to life than Metal, and this is an important issue, it may very well be the catalyst for the next major war.
I will say this: I am not a big fan of Israel, the tactics they use are beyond indecent, and the occupation is illegal, that does not mean that I hate Jews at all. And I do not accept the principles of Jewish supremacy that are both implicitly and explicity stated in Talmudic law. To be fair, I do not accept the ideology of Aryan supremacy stated in Mein Kampf either.
I will admit that I am a little tired of the "eternal victim" role that so many in the Jewish community seem to espouse, does that make me an anti-Semite? No. The holocaust
was a terrible, wrong thing, no sane person will deny that... but (some) Jews act like they are the only ones tkat have experienced this, hence The Holocaust... (note the capitalization.); that, alongside the one-sided coverage of the events in the middle-east bothers me.
As an American (welcome!) you know the reportage of the middle-east is not exactly fair and accurate, and sometimes the other voice should be heard .The american Indian genocide, the atrocities of Stalin (as a Ukrainian, you know what I am talking about), Pol Pot, the slave trade, etc.history is filled with tragic events.
As for the editorial content, both of the ones in question were related to both the Israel/Palestine issue, and anti-Semitism...
My insertion of the Zionist question was made to point out that there are similar views in the Jewish community, in the Talmud, etc.
just trying to add a little balance. Plus, I have a friend from that area and we discuss politics daily, so it is something that is on my mind..
Of course, any mention of such things immediately triggers a response of being accused of being anti-Semitic; a cheap tool to crush any opposing voice, after all who wants to be branded as something so unpalatable as that?
I was against the S. African apartheid, and I am against the apartheid in the middle east.
As for the gore lyrics, I never claimed you personally find them to be funny, but you neglected to include them in your ed., an unfair and incomplete portrayal of the lyrics controversy.
Daily, there are children, abducted; as a father, as I believe you are as well, that touches a nerve. As the father of a 6 yr. old daughter, lyrics about rape, torture and murder of girls sickens me...
Like I said BM is always used as an illustration of what is wrong with metal and this was just another example.
I don't even know why we are arguing, as we both agree that racism and genocide are bad things, whatever their stripe...
P.S. I have not slept for two consecutive nights, both of my kids, are sick as well, so I am edgier than usual.
V.

*nods* ... I've always been impressed with most of their bands as well. They seem to sign bands that are not only of good quality, but are also unique and refreshing. I enjoy your reviews of their output.

Back to the relationship of NM and TER for a second, I think I also remember Knjaz himself mentioning that he/the band got the impression that the label was somewhat uneasy with what they did on "NeChrist". Here's an interview...

http://www.firegoat.com/eng/?id=3&d=16

I heard a bit of their new material though and ... :shock: :(

I already elaborated on what I meant, to sum it up: Nazis are national socialists, but national socialists are not immediately Nazis.

I didn't care for Nechrist much at all, but Lunar Poetry and Goat Horns are outstanding.
V.

*nods* ... I'm not sure of what I think about "NeChrist" either, but I haven't actually heard that much of it.

I was actually referring to material from the new album that is coming out in March. I was thoroughly unimpressed...

Let me try to find the link again...

http://www.no-colours-records.de/mp3/Nokturnal.mp3?PHPSESSID=58ff5da7a1b7c543abb13b17eb7ddd48

I would ask if it's even the same band, but considering all the lineup changes, it really isn't anyway. :roll: I mean what the fuck is this?

-Tyrion