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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:28 am 
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Azrael wrote:
well Zad, at a time when even straight couples queue up to adopt kids (who in turn also queue up to get adopted.. go figure), the prospect of considerable abuse while growing up is a decent reason, i guess.

another question - if abuse wasn't an issue, should gay couples be considered on the exact same terms as straight couples when applying for adoption?


Well, what are the terms? Loving couple, stable enviroment, affluent enough... whyever not? The religion of the prospective parents is much more important than the sexuality... if the kid's been bought up as Muslim, putting him with Christian parents will clearly cause problems.

You can blame the media for much of the misconceptions, incidentally. The amount of films/tv shows I've seen, even non-American, where the only gays shown are mincing men with lisps... the amount of films where foster homes are dreadful and really it would be much better if we let the kids run away and be free...

Ultimately, in a less homophobic reflection of what Valefor said, there are far worse horrors in the world than whether gay people can make their unions official in society's eyes. They should be able to, clearly, but thinking like Metalhead-Bastard does that marriage will impose some kind of morality/ethics on people (been listening to Conservative policies, have we?) is just plain nuts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:03 pm 
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metal_xxx wrote:
Zad wrote:
There might be a bit of extra bullying, but I don't think it'll be as bad as you guys say. Here at least, not sure about other countries.

And if the only reason you can come up with for gays not to adopt is 'because the kid might get called nasty names at school'... :rolleyes:
It'll be very bad here. Bullying is a serious problem. children and youths got no respect for anything or anyone. They judge the individual by his surroundings and not by the person himself


Zad, are you taking the piss? Of course he/she would be bullied, and probably in an extreme way.

I'm not saying gay culture is all promiscous and has no morals, I just typed that to make my point more extreme, lest it be ignored. Allowing marriages will bring some sense of credibility and normality to gay culture.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:34 am 
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Dear Metalreviews,
Even though I think incest is somewhat icky, I don't think it should be illegal because there are really no reasons to disallow incest that do not breach people's civil rights. A a child from a cousin marriage for example is at no more risk of having genetic disorders than a child from a 40 year old mother. Many marriages in the past have involved social stigma, such as mixed-race marriages. They are thankfully no longer banned. So that's two main reasons for cousin marriage to be banned shot down. To make it fair, either ban all people with a high chance of passing on genetic disorders from reproducing, or allow cousin marriage. The recent incest controversy in Australia made me think very hard about this and change my mind. Still... icky.

As for marrying animals and children, that one's so easy it's stupid. Marriage requires consent. Grown men and women can give consent and have been giving consent to marry people of opposite sex for centuries. Children can't give consent, and animals are friggin' animals, they can't enter a legal contract.

Oh, and I have like, straight parents who are uber straight and I got bullied like hell. I came home with nosebleeds and bruises, and once a split lip after I refused to help someone during an exam. I got bullied because I'm a nerd and I was a bit shorter than all the others. I doubt anyone in my class even knew what 'gay' means, seriously.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:41 am 
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Sasheron wrote:
Dear Metalreviews,
Even though I think incest is somewhat icky, I don't think it should be illegal because there are really no reasons to disallow incest that do not breach people's civil rights. A a child from a cousin marriage for example is at no more risk of having genetic disorders than a child from a 40 year old mother. Many marriages in the past have involved social stigma, such as mixed-race marriages. They are thankfully no longer banned. So that's two main reasons for cousin marriage to be banned shot down. To make it fair, either ban all people with a high chance of passing on genetic disorders from reproducing, or allow cousin marriage. The recent incest controversy in Australia made me think very hard about this and change my mind. Still... icky.



I seriously hope I've misread this because I'm drunk and you're not saying that incest is cousins marrying. Just, what.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:45 am 
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Zad wrote:
Sasheron wrote:
Dear Metalreviews,
Even though I think incest is somewhat icky, I don't think it should be illegal because there are really no reasons to disallow incest that do not breach people's civil rights. A a child from a cousin marriage for example is at no more risk of having genetic disorders than a child from a 40 year old mother. Many marriages in the past have involved social stigma, such as mixed-race marriages. They are thankfully no longer banned. So that's two main reasons for cousin marriage to be banned shot down. To make it fair, either ban all people with a high chance of passing on genetic disorders from reproducing, or allow cousin marriage. The recent incest controversy in Australia made me think very hard about this and change my mind. Still... icky.



I seriously hope I've misread this because I'm drunk and you're not saying that incest is cousins marrying. Just, what.

That is the dictionary definition. You're probably thinking of the kind where a parent molests a child, which would fall under both the category of incest and child abuse/molestation. Incest just means a sexual encounter between two closely-related individuals. That's where the term "kissing cousins" comes from; it denotes two people who are related, but not closely enough for it to count as incest.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:57 am 
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Carnifex Umbris wrote:
That is the dictionary definition. You're probably thinking of the kind where a parent molests a child, which would fall under both the category of incest and child abuse/molestation. Incest just means a sexual encounter between two closely-related individuals. That's where the term "kissing cousins" comes from; it denotes two people who are related, but not closely enough for it to count as incest.


Yes, or brother/sister, but it's still incest. Cousins don't count as incestuous in my opinion, whereas closer relatives do, and broadening borders unnecessarily seems dangerous.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:50 am 
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Ist Krieg
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i always considered it incest if you banged your cousin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:59 am 
however, banging your twinbrother should be considered technically advanced masturbation.



I don't consider counsin marriage as incest, or at least not the worst kind. I think counsin marriage is legal in Denmark, but personally I don't like the idea. Sure thing, it's only a problem if everybody does it. I have heard that the middle east has the highest rate of genetically disorders, 6 toes instead of 5 etc. And it's not good for intelligence or the immune system.
To say incest shouldn't be illegal is just stupid, products of brother/sister, or father/daughter marriages are not yummy yummy for the human race.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:06 am 
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Did you seriously read what I said? If we were to make the ban fair, we would also have to ban people with genetic disorders from reproducing, and people over the age of 40. Singling out incest and using the genetics argument is simply not fair and is a vague excuse for a formalisation of a taboo. I didn't say that legalising it was a good idea - some laws are just not fair even if they are useful.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:25 am 
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Sasheron wrote:
Did you seriously read what I said? If we were to make the ban fair, we would also have to ban people with genetic disorders from reproducing, and people over the age of 40. Singling out incest and using the genetics argument is simply not fair and is a vague excuse for a formalisation of a taboo. I didn't say that legalising it was a good idea - some laws are just not fair even if they are useful.

In all honesty, that's one of the many reasons I'm not having kids. No one deserves to have this crap of a body. For the most part, my genes suck. Breast cancer, diabetes, alcoholism, heart disease, depression and a propensity for blood clots (although I only got one of the two genes for it, factor 5 liden) all run in my family. I had walking pneumonia five or six times when I was a teenager, and I've been sick for the past six months now. I know it sounds horrible and starts straying into eugenics territory, but there is a point at which you really have to consider the quality of life you'll be inflicting on your poor child.

As for incest, it should be banned. Even first cousins can cause problems; a pair of my great-grandparents were first cousins, and their daughter (my grandmother) suffered from menstrual pain (the causes-you-to-lose-consciousness kind of pain) and had something like three or four miscarriages before she finally managed to carry a child to term. Since my dad was one of those children, I'm not complaining too loudly, but clearly her biology was trying to tell us something.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:47 am 
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That is actually very far into the eugenics territory. I am all for voluntary genetic control, but a government policy advocating something like that is discriminatory by nature. Now only if everyone was decent enough to get genetic counseling before reproducing...

On a side note, I think 'inflicting' is a bit too strong. I mean, would you rather be dead now? I think in cases where there are some negative 'genes' (not that I am a fan of genetic, or even biological determinism and genetic atomism) if there are no horrible and certainly hereditary disorders present the decision to reproduce or not to reproduce is neutral either way. If the kid has some problems but overall enjoys his or her life - why not? I don't have a very good spine or joints but I'm happy overall. I don't mind the occasional pain and having to take nutritional supplements. If they're not born, they don't care because there's no one to care. Only if you believe in negative population growth or really hate children or have other things to consider does that neutrality disappear.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:47 am 
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This is Sparta!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:23 pm 
Sasheron wrote:
Did you seriously read what I said? If we were to make the ban fair, we would also have to ban people with genetic disorders from reproducing, and people over the age of 40. Singling out incest and using the genetics argument is simply not fair and is a vague excuse for a formalisation of a taboo. I didn't say that legalising it was a good idea - some laws are just not fair even if they are useful.


so it is not fair to ban marriages between, say, brothers and sisters, or parents marrying their offspring (which does occur in some religious cults)?
It's not good for the intelligence, immune system or genetics - and that's it. Banning incest is not unfair, it's a simple law with great benefits - banning ppl with genetic disorders from getting children requires genetic control, and I don't believe in that sort law - if you got a severe genetic disorders you can't get children anyway. "Booh, mother nature narrowminded bitch! It's not fair!". And yes, getting babies after you're 35 will increase the chance of getting a child with birth defects, but it's a type of law that will violate privacy (again), we can't banning pregnant women from smoking either - besides, the chance of getting a child with birth defects is far greater with counsin relationships - even more so if it relatives closer to each other.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:10 pm 
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Carnifex Umbris wrote:
Ah, yes, the "my relative is gay, I know what I am talking about" argument. Truly, the benchmark of expertise in gay culture.

As for porn, well, it's your own argument that women's sexuality is different than men's. Why would it come as a shock that a woman is going to want a different kind of porn than a dude? There are actually porn companies run by women that make porn specifically marketed to women, in fact...and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the majority of their customers are women.

You say that you're not "full of stereotypes," but then you make wild assumptions about gay men based on straight men. Admittedly, the source of our disagreement might just be a culture gap; certainly, it would come as a startling revelation to find out that things are different in Brazil than in the U.S. :lol:


This is nice. You can say you know as many slut-tastic girls as you know men .... but when I say my cousin is gay and some people from work too, and they told me a little something about gay culture ... I'm full of shite.

If you think males and females treat sex the same way, tell that to the thousands of book publishers and psycologists who treat this subject. The book "Men are from Mars, women are from venus" ... pure crap then, right? Books that deal on female psycology, like The Mystery Method or The Game, they're full of crap too, right.

Admit it, certain groups of people behave differently. Races are different, genders behave differently. That's a fact. All you have to do is try to understand the differences, respect the differences and even cherish the differences.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:09 pm 
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You're taking her argument out of context Pasqua, she's saying that girls are just as horny as guys... not that we treat sex the same way.

Also jduging from those books' names they are full of crap. :P.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:42 pm 
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Banging your cousin is OK!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:06 pm 
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I can't believe that gay marriage is illegal in some countries and states. I see no reason why the state or whatever should interfere in peoples business and decide whether they can marry the person of the same sex they love or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:14 am 
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Astaroth wrote:
.


Dude stop. I'm not disagreeing with you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:31 am 
Sasheron wrote:
Astaroth wrote:
.


Dude stop. I'm not disagreeing with you.


uhm... yes, you are... regarding what's fair and what's unfair. You say banning incest is unfair but useful, I say it is fair and useful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:07 am 
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Ist Krieg
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Astaroth wrote:
Sasheron wrote:
Did you seriously read what I said? If we were to make the ban fair, we would also have to ban people with genetic disorders from reproducing, and people over the age of 40. Singling out incest and using the genetics argument is simply not fair and is a vague excuse for a formalisation of a taboo. I didn't say that legalising it was a good idea - some laws are just not fair even if they are useful.


so it is not fair to ban marriages between, say, brothers and sisters, or parents marrying their offspring (which does occur in some religious cults)?
It's not good for the intelligence, immune system or genetics - and that's it. Banning incest is not unfair, it's a simple law with great benefits - banning ppl with genetic disorders from getting children requires genetic control, and I don't believe in that sort law - if you got a severe genetic disorders you can't get children anyway. "Booh, mother nature narrowminded bitch! It's not fair!". And yes, getting babies after you're 35 will increase the chance of getting a child with birth defects, but it's a type of law that will violate privacy (again), we can't banning pregnant women from smoking either - besides, the chance of getting a child with birth defects is far greater with counsin relationships - even more so if it relatives closer to each other.


banning incest violates privacy...


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