Metal Reviews

Considering the fact that some of the most active political debaters here are from Europe, I thought this could spark some interesting discussion.

As you probably know, the people of Ireland gave the EU the middle finger by voting "No" to the Lisbon treaty. This should put the treaty in the fridge, but apparently the EU s going to continue the ratification process, with Ireland being the only country letting the people vote about this very inportant question.

Personally I'm happy with the result In Ireland and I would also like to give my middle finger to the power hungry aristocrats in Brussels and the national governments as the whole thing pretty much proves how distanced from the people the elite in the EU has become. The Treaty of Lisbon is pretty much exactly the same as the European Constitution which was voted down in referendums in France and the Netherlands. The major differences this time is is that the "national symbols" are removed and the national parliaments, not te people (except Ireland) will decide wether or not to ratificate the treaty.

Here are some of the major changes, taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Treaty where you can read pretty much everything about the treaty.

A European Council President
with a 2½ year term de facto
replacing the rotating presidency.

A single foreign affairs post
created by merging the External
Relations Commissioner with the
CFSP High Representative.

Charter of Fundamental Rights
from 2000 made legally binding.

Pillars merged to 1 legal person
increasing the EU's competence
to sign treaties.

European Council separated
officially from the EU Council.
Legislative meetings of the EU
Council to be held in public.

Commission reduced
to less than one commissioner per
country. Nationalities would rotate
regardless of country size.

More powerful Parliament
by extending codecision with the
Councils to more areas of policy.

Further enlargement enabled
by removing the Nice Treaty
limitation to 27 Member States.

More double majority voting
to new areas of policy in the
European Council and the
EU Council, from 2014 on.

Common defence foreseen
in that the ESDP leads to one
when the European Council
unanimously decides to.

National parliaments engaged
by expanding scrutiny-time of
legislation and enabling them to
jointly compel the Commission
to review or withdraw legislation.

Mutual solidarity obliged
if a member state is object of a
terrorist attack or the victim of a
natural or man-made disaster.

Citizens' petitions
to be considered by the
Commission if signed by
1 mill. citizens.

Combating climate change
explicitly stated as an objective.

An EU Public Prosecutor

An External Action Service

Membership withdrawal clause

I'm not completely anti-EU, and this new treaty isn't completely bad, but I really think the EU needs to stop this attempt at making the EU more like a state and start listening to the peole, especially considering the rather strong anti-EU sentiments in countries such as France and England (not to mention Sweden).

I'll elaborate more on some points later, as I have limited access to a computer at the moment. Hopefully this threas will still be alive then

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It's kind of a grey area for me. On the one hand I am quite internationalist in my outlook and like the idea of being politically closer and more linked to the rest of Europe. Also, it looks like it could make it possible for social movements (Ie Human Rights NGOs, trade unions etc) to link up and become more internationalised, which is something I would like to see. Then there's the fact that a lot of the most vocal "no" voices are people that I don't like at all, for example nationalist or isolationist political groups who oppose it because "durr Britain is the best I hate everyone else".


On the other hand, I also don't like the way it was conducted- ie the political establishment telling everyone that of course it would make all their lives better and anyone who couldn't see that was a small-minded chump. I also think the EU is not a democratic place and don't especially want to hand more power to it.

A lot of the changes in it I think are terminally uninteresting... like



But then some sound pretty alarming... like



WTF? It makes it sound like if another bomb goes off in London, Gordon Brown could use this clause to tell the entire rest of the EU that they are "obliged out of mutual solidarity" to support an invasion of Pakistan or whatever.

Overall I am happy that the Irish voted no, but that doesn't mean I am not pro-Europe. Here is a good article putting the "no" case, anyhoo (before the actual result came in, btw) IT outlines the biggest reasons I would be against it- ie undermining taxation or spending sovereignty, and more importantly undermining labour freedoms such as the right to strike in some cases.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ireland.eu

Wow that makes it sound like the Council of Vienna after Napoleon's defeat. It could lead terrorists to be a little apprehensive about attacking a European country but it could also lead to fallacious invasions like Iraq or something like what Rio said.

I'm against EU constitution and Lisbon treaty, not because I'm anti-european, I really believe is necessary a strong and united UE, but I'm against a treaty more suited to big corporations than people, ans working class specially. And things like the 65 montly working hours prove that.

doesn't NATO have a similar rule which was applied after 9/11?

Google tells me that is outlined in Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty. So yes, yes it is but I don't know if that was invoked to invade Iraq.

not iraq, afghanistan.