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Who will/would you pick?
Obama 74%  74%  [ 29 ]
Hilary 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
McCain 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 39
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:29 pm 
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"Reality has a liberal bias" -Jon Stewart (I think).

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:45 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
That video is fucking awful. Calling Obama's parents, mainly his mother, trash is fucking unnecessary. The difference between Obama's parents and Palin is that Obama's parents don't want to force abstinence education on the entire country or repeal Roe v Wade.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:12 pm 
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5/3/// wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Brahm_K wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
Brahm_K wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:



Animals THRIVE there, why cant the people?


Are you suggesting that there's a relation between lions being able to survive in a natural environment and a natural environment being able to easily support an agrarian society?



There are herbivores in Africa.
There are resources to trade with.
The Middle East, hardly a fertile place, seems to have been able to build a pretty respectable civilisation.


But certain sections of the Middle east were very fertile- its no mistake that civilizations were built around the Khabur Basin (an entirely rainfed agricultural region) and other extremely fertile areas, which the Middle East did have a fair amount of (its much more barren now, due to overuse of land, than it was back in the day). Similarly, its not hard to figure out why the ancient Egyptians could build an agrarian society and the Berbers (Libyans) couldn't; the Egyptians had the Nile irrigating their plains once a year, making agriculture steady and easy.

For the most part, Africa didn't have these extremely fertile plains, and the population of its hunter gatherer tribes never became so big that agriculture became a necessity, as it did for the Egyptians. Ie, why stop being a hunter gatherer when being a hunter gatherer gets you and everyone enough food? You need more than herbivores and resources to trade with to get an agricultural society, Val.


Africa has it's share of rivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_by_length

Zimbabwe is a case in point: once flourishing under colonial rule, now in a state of crisis.
I read somewhere that Mugabe was trying to bring back the whites that were driven out.
Another case in point: Haiti. It wasn't always the way it is today.

Nonsense.
Colonial domination still applies for most of Africa except the state colonisation has been replaces by an economic colonisation that is supported by former colonialist nations.

Please, do not speak of which you do not know.


Ahhh, yes, more Marxism. How arrogant of you to assume I don't know anything about so-called economic colonialism
(you actually got the term wrong, son.)
But wait, I thought that Africa was infertile, barren and so on, but now it's plight is because Whites and Asians are exploiting what the native population didn't or wouldn't or couldn't.
So, prof., explain to me why everyone else under the sun (apparently) can exploit this rich abundant continent but the natives cannot?
And the fact that the entire infrastructure was built by outsiders and the fact that Africa recieves billions and billions of dollars a year from the very governments that are supposedly exploiting it?
Explain to me, please, why others can come in and make things work, build an infrastrucure, till the land, and so on, yet the native population can't?
Economic colonialism? Balderdash! Sounds another excuse and pardon from manning ones own destiny and general personal responsibility in a looong line of them.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:25 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
That video is fucking awful. Calling Obama's parents, mainly his mother, trash is fucking unnecessary. The difference between Obama's parents and Palin is that Obama's parents don't want to force abstinence education on the entire country or repeal Roe v Wade.


Ahhhh, where's your sense of humor?
That guy was a laff riot!

Where does Palin state she would want to FORCE anyone to do anything? FORCE education? How do you FORCE education? And what is wrong with children being "educated" about absistence?
Do you have kids? No? Well most parents do not want their kids sleeping around.
Palins daughter getting pregnant is not Palins fault. What, is she supposed to keep her locked up in a basement?
You Obama supportres continue to give Obama a pass on everything, yet are grasping at the most meager of straws in finding things to criticize Palin for.
Another difference between Obamas parents and Palin is that the Palins are actually RAISING ther children.
And isn't it interesting that Obama called his WHITE grandmother, the one that raised him, a typical white person?
Talk about gratitude.
Why not call his father a typical black man? After all, he left his babymama to fend for herself.
Illegitemacy rates nearing 80% in the black community , and all that.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:28 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
"Reality has a liberal bias" -Jon Stewart (I think).


Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains. - Winston Churchill

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:14 pm 
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Well, I suspect that the problems Africa has are extremely complicated and caused by a whole spectrum of problems some of which are the fault of Africans and some of other people.

For a start, I'm not sure how much it helps to portray Africa as a hellhole beyond salvation that has nothing going for it whatsoever, which is what a lot of people on all different sides of this argument do. Several African states are democracies, several African states have experienced economic development. Look at Botswana, for example. Maybe the whole idea that the continent is one giant fuck-up needs to be challenged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#Economy

Quote:
Since independence, Botswana has had one of the fastest growth rates in per capita income in the world.[2] Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of $16,450 in 2007.


However I would like to discuss some of your points.

cry of the banshee wrote:


But wait, I thought that Africa was infertile, barren and so on, but now it's plight is because Whites and Asians are exploiting what the native population didn't or wouldn't or couldn't.
So, prof., explain to me why everyone else under the sun (apparently) can exploit this rich abundant continent but the natives cannot?


It is known in development academia as the "resource curse", and can be applied to far more than just Africa. Excuse all the links to Wikipedia, but I'm pressed for time and I'm sure if you want you can easily find more academic sources on the subject. Having natural resources has very often turned out to be a problem rather than a blessing for countries, for many reasons. It doesn't excuse African leaders for succumbing to it, but it should illustrate that the failure to make use of natural resources is by no means a uniquely African problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

One thing that should be clear the US in particular has done is promote privatisation as a short-cut to development. Whatever you think of that idea, it should give you a big clue as to one huge reason why African governments have failed to exploit these resources- they are all owned by Shell etc. COmpanies import their own staff and their own equipment and can function in an isolated bubble whereby they export their mineral wealth with negligible contribution to the surrounding community. African leaders could be called cowards for not putting a stop to this, but bear in mind that would involve a huge diplomatic break with the US comparable to that with Venezuela under Chavez. It is not that surprising they don't have the bollocks to do it.

Quote:
And the fact that the entire infrastructure was built by outsiders and the fact that Africa recieves billions and billions of dollars a year from the very governments that are supposedly exploiting it?


It should be noted that a huge proportion of "aid" money is given in order to be spent on military equipment. For example Egypt.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2004/34425.htm

$1.3 billion annual military assistance budget, with about one third of that amount being for infrasturcture etc. This is not uncommon at all. Egypt is a dictatorship with massive poverty and underdevelopment. All the vast majority of the "aid" they are given by the government does is strengthen a corrupt and oppressive system (I don't have the figures for the UK and Europe, but the principle is most likely the same)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:17 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
"Reality has a liberal bias" -Jon Stewart (I think).


Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains. - Winston Churchill


Fucking hell if one more person wheels out that stupid old Churchill quote... there's pretty much nothing I can do about it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:18 pm 
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rio wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
"Reality has a liberal bias" -Jon Stewart (I think).


Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains. - Winston Churchill


Fucking hell if one more person wheels out that stupid old Churchill quote... there's pretty much nothing I can do about it.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:27 pm 
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rio wrote:
Well, I suspect that the problems Africa has are extremely complicated and caused by a whole spectrum of problems some of which are the fault of Africans and some of other people.

For a start, I'm not sure how much it helps to portray Africa as a hellhole beyond salvation that has nothing going for it whatsoever, which is what a lot of people on all different sides of this argument do. Several African states are democracies, several African states have experienced economic development. Look at Botswana, for example. Maybe the whole idea that the continent is one giant fuck-up needs to be challenged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#Economy

Quote:
Since independence, Botswana has had one of the fastest growth rates in per capita income in the world.[2] Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of $16,450 in 2007.


However I would like to discuss some of your points.

cry of the banshee wrote:


But wait, I thought that Africa was infertile, barren and so on, but now it's plight is because Whites and Asians are exploiting what the native population didn't or wouldn't or couldn't.
So, prof., explain to me why everyone else under the sun (apparently) can exploit this rich abundant continent but the natives cannot?


It is known in development academia as the "resource curse", and can be applied to far more than just Africa. Excuse all the links to Wikipedia, but I'm pressed for time and I'm sure if you want you can easily find more academic sources on the subject. Having natural resources has very often turned out to be a problem rather than a blessing for countries, for many reasons. It doesn't excuse African leaders for succumbing to it, but it should illustrate that the failure to make use of natural resources is by no means a uniquely African problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

One thing that should be clear the US in particular has done is promote privatisation as a short-cut to development. Whatever you think of that idea, it should give you a big clue as to one huge reason why African governments have failed to exploit these resources- they are all owned by Shell etc. COmpanies import their own staff and their own equipment and can function in an isolated bubble whereby they export their mineral wealth with negligible contribution to the surrounding community. African leaders could be called cowards for not putting a stop to this, but bear in mind that would involve a huge diplomatic break with the US comparable to that with Venezuela under Chavez. It is not that surprising they don't have the bollocks to do it.

Quote:
And the fact that the entire infrastructure was built by outsiders and the fact that Africa recieves billions and billions of dollars a year from the very governments that are supposedly exploiting it?


It should be noted that a huge proportion of "aid" money is given in order to be spent on military equipment. For example Egypt.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2004/34425.htm

$1.3 billion annual military assistance budget, with about one third of that amount being for infrasturcture etc. This is not uncommon at all. Egypt is a dictatorship with massive poverty and underdevelopment. All the vast majority of the "aid" they are given by the government does is strengthen a corrupt and oppressive system (I don't have the figures for the UK and Europe, but the principle is most likely the same)


Greetings, rio, it's been awhile since we engaged in point-counterpoint.
I, too, am short on time, so allow me a quick counterpoint:
Perhaps there are pockets of prosperity in Africa (and more power to 'em), but by and large, it is a continent in agony.
Africa's plight may be complex in as far as how it got to where it's at, true, but I can simplify it: The big fish always eats the little fish, on and on, world without end.
It's way of the world, A child is born with a heart of gold
The way of the world makes his heart grow cold, etc., etc.

And as for $$$$$$ aid, Iwas referring to humanitarian aid, and aid in the form of building infrastructure, so on.
But I do believe that nations and peopls SHOULD be left to forge their own destiny, without interference, though, alas, that will (probably) never happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:03 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
That video is fucking awful. Calling Obama's parents, mainly his mother, trash is fucking unnecessary. The difference between Obama's parents and Palin is that Obama's parents don't want to force abstinence education on the entire country or repeal Roe v Wade.


Ahhhh, where's your sense of humor?
That guy was a laff riot!

Where does Palin state she would want to FORCE anyone to do anything? FORCE education? How do you FORCE education? And what is wrong with children being "educated" about absistence?
Do you have kids? No? Well most parents do not want their kids sleeping around.
Palins daughter getting pregnant is not Palins fault. What, is she supposed to keep her locked up in a basement?
You Obama supportres continue to give Obama a pass on everything, yet are grasping at the most meager of straws in finding things to criticize Palin for.
Another difference between Obamas parents and Palin is that the Palins are actually RAISING ther children.
And isn't it interesting that Obama called his WHITE grandmother, the one that raised him, a typical white person?
Talk about gratitude.
Why not call his father a typical black man? After all, he left his babymama to fend for herself.
Illegitemacy rates nearing 80% in the black community , and all that.
That guy was like MC Hammer meets Fred Phelps. I couldn't laugh at his theatrics due to the fact he was calling someone's parents trash mixed with some good ol' racism and family values like 'my mama, my mama told me any white woman, any white woman who sucks the black cock is a HO!'.

Her policy, the policy of the ultra-right moral majority who McCain has tried to gain support of for the past year, is to repeal Roe v Wade and to prevent information about contraceptives from being taught in school. As for Palin, maybe if she would've taught her daughter to use a condom maybe she wouldn't have got knocked up. Tons of teens have sex and when they get knocked up, from my experience, it has always been because of a lack of understanding of birth control. It isn't at all about her preventing her child from having sex; it is the fact that her daughter failed to use contraceptives and the fact that she has the choice to have an abortion while her mother doesn't want any teens to learn how to use contraceptives or for anyone to have the choice to have an abortion. Her ability to parent, using her personal and political views as her guide, shows that her and her views fail.

Obama's parents not being able to take care of him are the epitome of why we need to enable the lower class by providing jobs and tax cuts because without financial problems, families can stablize. How does a person's parents influence his ability to be president?

Thanks, though, for grabbing one word out of my whole post and emphasizing it when you didn't grasp the meaning in the context and generalizing an entire race of people's actions.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:26 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
That guy was like MC Hammer meets Fred Phelps.


Sounds like a good night in to me


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:31 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
As for Palin, maybe if she would've taught her daughter to use a condom maybe she wouldn't have got knocked up.


How do you know she didn't? And again, why should the voting public give two shits about it?

I agree with what you're saying about McCain/Palin appealing to the religious right, but they've really got no choice. If they don't, they lose, simple as that. John McCain has said time and again he thinks abortion should only be legal in cases of rape or incest and in the end should be left to the states to decide, so I would say overturning Roe v Wade is pretty low on his "to-do" list shoud he get elected. It's all a bait and switch game. If he came out and said he really didn't care about abortion rights, BAM!, there goes his base. He has to at least give the appearance that it is a priority for him, even though I suspect that it isn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:46 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
cry of the banshee wrote:
That video is fucking awful. Calling Obama's parents, mainly his mother, trash is fucking unnecessary. The difference between Obama's parents and Palin is that Obama's parents don't want to force abstinence education on the entire country or repeal Roe v Wade.


Ahhhh, where's your sense of humor?
That guy was a laff riot!

Where does Palin state she would want to FORCE anyone to do anything? FORCE education? How do you FORCE education? And what is wrong with children being "educated" about absistence?
Do you have kids? No? Well most parents do not want their kids sleeping around.
Palins daughter getting pregnant is not Palins fault. What, is she supposed to keep her locked up in a basement?
You Obama supportres continue to give Obama a pass on everything, yet are grasping at the most meager of straws in finding things to criticize Palin for.
Another difference between Obamas parents and Palin is that the Palins are actually RAISING ther children.
And isn't it interesting that Obama called his WHITE grandmother, the one that raised him, a typical white person?
Talk about gratitude.
Why not call his father a typical black man? After all, he left his babymama to fend for herself.
Illegitemacy rates nearing 80% in the black community , and all that.
That guy was like MC Hammer meets Fred Phelps. I couldn't laugh at his theatrics due to the fact he was calling someone's parents trash mixed with some good ol' racism and family values like 'my mama, my mama told me any white woman, any white woman who sucks the black cock is a HO!'.

Her policy, the policy of the ultra-right moral majority who McCain has tried to gain support of for the past year, is to repeal Roe v Wade and to prevent information about contraceptives from being taught in school. As for Palin, maybe if she would've taught her daughter to use a condom maybe she wouldn't have got knocked up. Tons of teens have sex and when they get knocked up, from my experience, it has always been because of a lack of understanding of birth control. It isn't at all about her preventing her child from having sex; it is the fact that her daughter failed to use contraceptives and the fact that she has the choice to have an abortion while her mother doesn't want any teens to learn how to use contraceptives or for anyone to have the choice to have an abortion. Her ability to parent, using her personal and political views as her guide, shows that her and her views fail.

Obama's parents not being able to take care of him are the epitome of why we need to enable the lower class by providing jobs and tax cuts because without financial problems, families can stablize. How does a person's parents influence his ability to be president?

Thanks, though, for grabbing one word out of my whole post and emphasizing it when you didn't grasp the meaning in the context and generalizing an entire race of people's actions.


Err, that one word was basically the summary of your post.

And Obama's parents / grandparents were hardly lower class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ... and_career

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyn_and_Stanley_Dunham

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:15 am 
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McCain has come out on TV as being fully against Roe v Wade, if that makes a difference, although at the moment I'm more interested in the fact that he's getting heavy criticism for the bare-faced lies he tells in his adverts, even - get this - from Karl Rove. Wow. When Karl Rove calls you a liar, then something's seriously wrong.

As for Africa, interesting recent article from George Awesome Monbiot about how the EU is crushing countries through trade agreements:

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/09 ... #more-1145


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:09 am 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
Err, that one word was basically the summary of your post.

And Obama's parents / grandparents were hardly lower class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ... and_career

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyn_and_Stanley_Dunham
The word I was talking about was 'force'.By force, I meant it as in wanting to pass a policy for public education which many disagree with.

Alcoholism, illegitimacy rates and divided families are an economic problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:21 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anxkrm9uEJk

The disney movie bit had me almost fall out of my chair.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Obama's emails have been leaked too!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:07 am 
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Good article on Palin:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/160080/page/1


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:44 pm 
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Zad wrote:


that articles was bs...
wanna talk about inexperience?
Let's talk about Obama.
As for dubious religious connotations, Obama's (ex?) church is pure looney fringe.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:00 pm 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
Zad wrote:


NO U


How was it bs, exactly? You think that people won't vote for Palin just because she's a pheemale, and a moaahm, and all that?

And ha! An article that proves through science that conservatives are wimps:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 783077.ece


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