Metal Reviews

Remember the thousands of people murdered over the next few days.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... 1989-china

You can be sure the Chinese government won't; it has started blocking Twitter and Hotmail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... tter-china

wayy before i was born i read an article in newsweek about a man's recollections of the event.
checkk it

Which begs the question just how old are you? 13? This happened when I was less than a month old it seems.

Chinese govt is pretty brutal. Wouldn't blame Marx though.

im nineteen man, but i remember my parents telling me about tiannemen ages ago.

This happened a year before you were born not ages ago.

This is no time for sentiment; the level of social protest and pro-democracy activism going on in China is far, far greater now than it was then.

http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=125

I forget the statistics off the top of my head but there are several thousand workers on strike EVERY DAY in the Shenzhen area alone. Striking is illegal in China and labour activists are imprisoned and/or tortured.

That article's from 2005. Nothing's going to change in China without outside help.

er... yes. That's not a long time ago, y'know, when we are talking about things of this scale, and the situation has only escalated since.

What kind of outside help do you propose? My research project is actually on the very subject of "outside help" towards Chinese workers involved in these protests, and I'm pretty certain that far, far more has been achieved by them themselves than from any input from external forces.

China has never actually existed in any stable form except under the CCP. If we think we can take this country in hand and enlighten it we are in for a big shock. Just like every other country, change has to come from within. People have to be self-emancipated.

Oh, agreed. Just saying, I can't see it happening any time soon unless they start testing nukes and Obama invades and somehow wins. Which is clearly fantasyland.

There is definitely cause for optimism in China, IMO. It's not going to become a model of democracy soon, if ever, but things are changing, and it's quite possible that there will be breakthroughs in the forseeable future. I mean, there already have been; the CCP tolerates far more now than it used to. That's not because its mellowed; its because it has had to tolerate more under pressure from its own populace. Obama will have nowt to do with it.

China today is dialectical materialism in glorious technicolour

Hmm... I think you're being overly optimistic, personally. The more I read about China the more it sounds like Soviet Russia at its worst, with the rewriting of history and suppression of dissidents... fine, workers rights may have improved, but there's still an iron grip on the place, and whilst there may be change, it's going to be extremely gradual. China's record on human rights is disgusting, and needs to be made clear; hence Tiananmen Square remembrance.

And I think you're dismissing Obama too easily. He is a massive symbol, even if he's not the messiah, and considering that this is Commie China we're speaking of, symbols are powerful things.

Well, optimism is all relative, but yeah, gradual change is happening... there will be reactions against it but the general path I see is one of slowly edging towards a more open and tolerant society.

China always was probably worse than Soviet Russia so saying it's like the USSR may even be an improvement already

Y'know, Obama might do something (although who knows what), but the fact remains that it would only ever be a gesture or a symbol, in comparison to the massive actual real pressure the CCP is feeling from its own subjects.

The key word. Consider the fuss over that poor sod that the police knocked over at the London protests vs the rewriting of history that China indulges in. People dare not go against the regime, meaning the regime is winning. How much pressure is there really from the populace? Not enough to make a difference for a while. Heh, we'll probably be arguing over this in 30-40 years' time with little discernible difference.

In 30-40 years time I'll take you up on that.

Look, we can't observe these big objective markers that signify surefire change. But dialectically, there has for a very long time been a growing swell of conflict within China itself, and it has already forced concessions. You say that the fact that people are afraid to go against the regime means it's winning. But the fact is, the amount of things people are doing now that is against the regime is increasing, and there's ultimately not that much the regime can do about it.

I've met people who've done research in China (hopefully I will myself some day, for now it's just reading and interviewing) and they unfailingly come back with the impression of the Chinese as one of, if not the, most radical, militant working class in the entire world. The fact that it is allowed to exist, with no Tiananmen-style massacres, should tell you something big.

That there's a greater difference between the government and the opposition than there is, say, here? As long as the regime appears to be changing, people are mollified, but in reality they control a great deal and there's nothing the hardcore can do about it. Can I ask for some proof that the resistance is growing, not that I doubt your word, but I just don't see how there CAN be any more resistance now than there was, say, in '89. Of course, the working class is going to be more militant; they need to be! They have more to fight against! And you say that there are no Tiananmen-style massacres, but that's because the opposition isn't there! Individual cases of human rights oppression are as prevalent as ever, surely, and they get lost in the media blackout and the lack of interest.

Please, convince me otherwise.

Proof of resistance growing can easily be done quantatively; can't be bothered to find stats now, but the number of people engaging in strikes or other types of confrontational activity with employers has grown very significantly. This is activity that has been illegal in China and has been clamped down upon, but now it is going on more than ever.

More to protest against? Economically, yes; partly as a result of the impact of foreign companies in China (that should say something else about the likelihood of help from outside), but politically I don't see that that is the case. The fact is, there is now space for massive labour unrest. Sure it is done clandestinely, but it exists and it is not stopped. That alone is a huge difference from previously. A Great Leap Forward, if you will.

Like I said in the last post, many researchers consider China as the world's most militant working class. What more evidence of opposition could you want?

My English teacher I have right now was there during the massacre and he tells stories about it. Really intense stuff.

Could you consider the protests as leftist and that the state was simply repressing a radical element? Were the protesters just organized labor or did they go beyond just that?

Tiananmen was mainly student democracy protesters but there was also a significant labour element there. However it's really only known for the student protests now.