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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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Saw that one coming lol


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Did the parasitic consumption begin around the Industrial Revolution or has it always been around in your opinion?


I think the number of species that have been hunted to extinction speaks for itself. IMO industrial technology has just made it easier for our natural tendencies to impact the earth.
"Our natural tendencies"? I don't know any reasons why we have to think that's our natural disposition.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Metal King
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traptunderice wrote:
GeneralDiomedes wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Did the parasitic consumption begin around the Industrial Revolution or has it always been around in your opinion?


I think the number of species that have been hunted to extinction speaks for itself. IMO industrial technology has just made it easier for our natural tendencies to impact the earth.
"Our natural tendencies"? I don't know any reasons why we have to think that's our natural disposition.


I just think the fact the pattern of destructive overconsumption has repeated itself over and over throughout history is a pretty good indication. I mean .. I can't even think of another explanation. Unless there is a clear and present danger, we are very loathe to change. It's the boiled frog syndrome.

And before you go all Al Gore on me (although he understands that fear is necessary).. climate change is the perfect example of a destructive scenario which lacks a clear and present danger.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:53 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
That's not the issue. The Canadian decision to give Kyoto the finger basically undermined the entire concept of pledging to reduce emissions. Not cool.


I don't recall the Canadian people voting on this issue. The people who actually have to drive to work in the winter and heat their homes.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:59 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
That's not the issue. The Canadian decision to give Kyoto the finger basically undermined the entire concept of pledging to reduce emissions. Not cool.


I don't recall the Canadian people voting on this issue. The people who actually have to drive to work in the winter and heat their homes.


Does it matter? Did I ever blame individual Canadians?

And if you're going to play the "country hardships", well, we live in the middle of the fucking alps.

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I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:17 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
Does it matter? Did I ever blame individual Canadians?


But that is what it comes down to. That and whomever generates demand for our natural resources (i.e. Americans). Why would an unrealistic target be met if people continue to live life the same way they did the day before?

FrigidSymphony wrote:
And if you're going to play the "country hardships", well, we live in the middle of the fucking alps.


Russia is comparable in its energy needs and geography, but not Switzerland. We also produce oil and natural gas for the US market. Many of the higher per capita CO2 emitting countries (Canada was number 10 in 2006) are oil producing ones.

I mean .. where did that natural gas come from to heat your home? I am guessing Russia. Basically some other country sucked up the CO2 emissions to produce so you can consume it.


Last edited by GeneralDiomedes on Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Ist Krieg
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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
FrigidSymphony wrote:
Does it matter? Did I ever blame individual Canadians?


But that is what it comes down to. That and whomever generates demand for our natural resources (i.e. Americans). Why would an unrealistic target be met if people continue to live life the same way they did the day before?

FrigidSymphony wrote:
And if you're going to play the "country hardships", well, we live in the middle of the fucking alps.


Russia is comparable in its energy needs and geography, but not Switzerland. We also produce oil and natural gas for the US market. Many of the higher per capita CO2 emitting countries (Canada was number 10 in 2006) are oil producing ones.


In a country without a direct democracy, it's not really the people's fault if decisions at an administrative level to ignore the carbon emission cuts pledge are made. Whatever, it's not a big deal here, but it is a problem if one country just sticks its middle finger at the whole schtick, based on the idea of reciprocal goodwill as it is.

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I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:40 pm 
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FrigidSymphony wrote:
In a country without a direct democracy, it's not really the people's fault if decisions at an administrative level to ignore the carbon emission cuts pledge are made. Whatever, it's not a big deal here, but it is a problem if one country just sticks its middle finger at the whole schtick, based on the idea of reciprocal goodwill as it is.


All I'm going to say is .. you percieve it as a "middle finger" but it's just reality crashing yet another international party. At home the Kyoto targets were never taken seriously by anyone really. Most considered it a PR exercise by the reigning slightly-left-of-center party. They got voted out and the subsequent right-leaning gov't had no intention of adhering to something they never would have ratified in the first place.

And before you reach for that superiority complex .. CO2 emissions increased under both left-leaning and right-leaning governments.

Anyhow the two players that really matter are the US and China. This graph pretty much says it all. Neither ratified Kyoto. I wonder why.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:36 pm 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... mark-lynas

Interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:48 am 
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Ist Krieg
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GeneralDiomedes wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
GeneralDiomedes wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
Did the parasitic consumption begin around the Industrial Revolution or has it always been around in your opinion?


I think the number of species that have been hunted to extinction speaks for itself. IMO industrial technology has just made it easier for our natural tendencies to impact the earth.
"Our natural tendencies"? I don't know any reasons why we have to think that's our natural disposition.


I just think the fact the pattern of destructive overconsumption has repeated itself over and over throughout history is a pretty good indication. I mean .. I can't even think of another explanation. Unless there is a clear and present danger, we are very loathe to change. It's the boiled frog syndrome.

And before you go all Al Gore on me (although he understands that fear is necessary).. climate change is the perfect example of a destructive scenario which lacks a clear and present danger.
I'm just being kinda anti-essentialist. I don't think you could ever garner enough of a change for those in the most needing of change if climate change was to occur so I'm still holding firmly onto changing the big picture.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:51 am 
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Ist Krieg
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Goat wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas

Interesting.
So Limbaugh and his goons cast Copenhagen's failings as a success for the politburo of China. China was able to talk sense into those Europeans and Obama's European consciousness.


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