Metal Reviews

So the tr00 music that hasn't sold itself doesn't know how to be good music?

Erm, no, tr00 music is best music, where tr00ness = innocence and natural talent as opposed to, erm.

Oh, I don't know any more. It's a Monday morning, leave my poor brain be.

Face it, it's a bad metaphor. I'd rather get a good shag from a professional fucker than a hapless virgin.

I don't think a single reader of these forums has any doubt whatsoever of that.

I was basically comparing a disease-ridden woman, representing tired music that's already been done countless times before, to a clean one, which represents new, fresh, original music that has yet to be discovered and enjoyed.

Are you saying whores are disease-ridden?

Shit...

Keep the sex-talk in the other thread that got derailed. Get back to discussing Dream Evil here. eventhoughtheysuck

We have a winner.

We aren't talking about crap vs masterpieces here damn it, so stop acting like that is what I said.

I'll give you an example:

I like Crimson Glory's Transcendence and I think they have terrific songs, but I would much rather listen to Glory To The Brave, even though the songwriting is not as strong.

Production IS songwriting, BTW, and I think my comments reflect the overall effect of the sound quality and placement of the instruments and the arrangement of the material.

My favorite "Yes" album is the ABWH one because it is miraculously produced in every way.

I guess I am the only one that thinks there is a difference between a rough demo and a finished, highly-polished end-product. The way you guys talk it doesn't mean anything because the notes are the same.

So why not just listen to Air Supply (or whatever passes for that shit these days), and be done with it?

No, it's not.



No-one's saying that, just that it matters less if the songs themselves are good enough to shine through.

Yeah at stating that production = songwriting.

Then you don't know what production is then. What do you think a producer does? They work with the artist to shape the material a certain way, in the past at the behest of the label, but moreover for the greater good of the music itself. This is why so many producers get a songwriting credit. Stop equating production with sound engineering. Two completely different things. A producer doesn't simply decide what "sound" to go with.

What you guys are implying is the same as saying a movie director has no part at all in the story writing, and that is simply just not true, no matter how smug you wanna act about it.

When we say 'songwriting', we're not talking about the process, but the end result - songwriting to most means how good the songs are. Production, on the other hand, means the sound quality/engineering, and yes, probably 'engineering' should replace it, but it makes more sense like that. Of course, we're talking about a wide range of bands here.

And often directors have little say over the scripts, no? So not sure how that helps.

The script is an outline more or less depending on the director's opinion and how they work. The words do not tell the story 100% in a movie, and nearly all movies exercise some sort of changing the lines or adding jokes. And at the end of the day, the director gets final say in the editing room, so I would most definitely say they shape the story as much as the screenwriter.

Yeah.

Polishing the sound quality of the product is not the same as songwriting, no matter how smug you wanna be about it.

When a track has it's songwriting credits listed, the producers name isn't included (unless of course the songwriter and producer are the same).
Why would that be? Oh, right. They didn't have a hand in WRITING THE SONG.
So, would you rather listen to some Motorhead or the latest Celine Dion? You yourself said production trumps songwriting.

imo sound quality and songwriting aren't entirely separate. It's all about sounding good, and I think two bands could record the same song without any changes and one would make the song seem great and the other would make it seem sucky. Performance is an extremely important aspect of any music and recording is integral to how the performance is perceived. imo saying sound quality has nothing to do with songwriting is like saying what instrument something is played on has nothing to do with songwriting.


Also breakdown heavy bands tend to have horrible production with soulless fake drums, muddy guitars (I've heard that metalcore and especially deathcore bands have the problem of having way too many bass heavy instruments so it's almost impossible for them not to sound garbled), and annoying layered vocals.

Yeah, but only one of those bands can be credited with the actual songwriting.

You seriously have a reading comprehension problem. I have mentioned over and over that the producer is not a mastering or mixing engineer, even if in many cases they take on those roles as well. Once more, the producer's role is to help the band write songs in some cases and in other cases help them shape rough ideas into palatable songs. Bands that have every nook and cranny of a song written before they even find a producer are few and far between. When a producer tells a band to move x part of a song to y part of the composition, shorten up a section, suggest a different key, tell them to play something faster or slower, they are having a huge impact on the songwriting process.

Don't think producer's have anything to do with songwriting. Two words: Andy LaRoche.

Celine Dion's early 90's work has some well written songs with great guitar playing, I like a few of those. She turned to shit once she signed up to work with Jim Steinman in the mid-90's. I'd rather listen to the two or three good songs she has than a rough motorhead demo all day. Sorry if that isn't metal enough for you. Metal is not about conformity. I guess we should tell 90% of metal bands that listen to pop music to quit.

Let's address this also. Once the melody of the song is established, the key it is written in, and the basic tempo is established, the song is written. Are you suggesting that both Madonna and Ozzy Osbourne wrote the songs they are credited with single-handedly because that is how it is in the liner notes? Kirk Hammett and Cliff Burton had nothing to do with Metallica's songs? Are you suggesting Buck Dharma did not write a single note of the songs he isn't listed as the songwriter on? What about Kiss? How about every drummer in the universe that has zero writing credits?

Whoever comes up with the very basic skeleton of a song usually gets the credit unless the band decides that they are splitting everything equally, no matter what.