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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:36 pm 
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a metric fuckton


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Sceadugenga wrote:
traptunderice wrote:
A lot of those bands you mentioned started alongside, before or slightly after Weakling.


That's precisely why I mentioned them. These bands started in the 90's or early 2000's and they had a greater influence on black metal in the 2000s than Weakling did.

Weakling, in comparison, influenced barely a handful of bands. And you state in the last four years? Ok, let's compare this to the birth of nearly every other genre/sub-genre or new wave of anything. In fact, let's compare this to the 80's and the birth of metal's primary sub-genres. During the time there was a process of bands not necessarily being entirely influenced by each other, but who fed off each other in some way or other while taking it a step further in whatever direction they were going in.

If we look at albums like Ace of Spades (or, heck even going back to the late 70's Motörhead albums) or Welcome to Hell as foundational albums in extreme metal as far as getting the ball rolling (though really metal had technically been steamrolling in all directions since the beginning), then we also see that within a year or so many of the bands that would begin to make up heavy influences for the three big extreme metal genres had already sprung up. By '81 there was already Metal Church's Red Skies demo that arguably holds the first bone fide thrash of the 80's. At the same time you already had bands like Sodom and Hellhammer releasing demos influenced by Venom by 1982 and 1983 respectively. In just two years to a year after that these guys were already taking metal by storm along with the likes of Bathory, Slayer, Celtic Frost, Exodus and others. Funny enough, bands had more immediate influences in the age of tape trading than in the MP3 age for Weakling-influenced bands.

Jumping ahead to the later spawn of this extreme metal madness you get the Norwegian scene. And how long until that Norwegian/Scandinavian scene influenced a lot of the early American bands? Not particularly long. And in far greater numbers than a handful of shitty bands that are only recognised as anything by certain people as doing anything interesting or new (which is their supposed claim to fame).

You can't really even begin to compare that to influencing 5 shitty bands.

Weakling has not influenced anything near as massive as the amount of bands influenced by Darkthrone, Burzum or Emperor alone (even looking at that influence in the 90's), or any sub-genre of black metal. This "influence" is restricted to a fairly small group of bands.

traptunderice wrote:
However, the last four years has been dominated by bands that have taken up what Weakling was doing. Obviously, they couldn't instantly influence the whole genre but to deny that their sound hasn't shifted the sound of the genre over the last four years is ridiculous. I want to say of the bands of note in the USBM coming out now, it's mostly Weakling influenced.


The thing is that they did not and, today, do not influence the whole genre of USBM, nor have they really shifted the sound of the genre. My argument with Weakling and bands like Krallice or Liturgy is that they do not actually create any sort of "new sound" for black metal. That's like saying Kvlt of Azazel created a new bm sound by simply playing what they were trying to immitate very poorly. And that's what Weakling did. There's an obvious influence from Norwegian and earlier USBM bands...but Weakling fails at actually figuring out how to play the black metal he's trying to immitate. But this is where personality/image takes over from the music, and I think it is that "alternative image" that has influenced bands like WITTR, Liturgy and Krallice, but when it comes to music they are nothing but poor immitations of an immitation. The "image" is something new, not the music. They bring nothing new to the spectrum of black metal beyond connecting the hipster indie scene to black metal. Really the only argument for how this is supposedly something new is fans saying it makes them "feel" different than what existed before it or along side it (zomg teh emoshunz!)...but technically there is not much that is actually different going on, beyond diverging away from black metal riffs entirely (probably because they wouldn't know one if it hit them in the face)...which then makes one wonder what the fuck they are actually playing beyond poor attempts at black metal.

As far as dominating...define dominate. The thing is that there is a "niche" for this sort of thing, but outside of a handful of bands it really has little to no influence. And I wouldn't take magazines as any real indication, since they pimp a lot of idiocy.[/i]


Wb Irondutchess, its always great to see another fan of the more extreme stuff on this forum. I also checked out Hammer of The Gods by Angelcorpse since our last argument and I really liked them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Jane Doe, Colors, Si Monvmentvm, Frances The Mute, and Blackwater Park are all well on their way to becoming classics, if they aren't already.


Why not add Children Of Bodom's Hate Crew Deathroll to that list as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:03 am 
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MetalStorm wrote:
Legacy Of The Night wrote:
Jane Doe, Colors, Si Monvmentvm, Frances The Mute, and Blackwater Park are all well on their way to becoming classics, if they aren't already.


Why not add Children Of Bodom's Hate Crew Deathroll to that list as well.


I think it's a classic. Not perfect, but better than a lot of "classics"

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:38 am 
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Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Yes it's clearer with graph + the explanations, thank you very much.

I don't know what to think of my shitload of mp3s right now...

(I promise I stop using the word shitload, starting tomorrow.)


Well, I personally think it comes down to hardware. If you own a modern computer it likely has 32/24 bit resolution with at least 96Khz sample rate you are in good shape. At that point Mp3 is going to make you suffer. Back 5 years ago was the last time I did a serious comparison and couldn't tell the difference on the old 48Khz/16-Bit cards. Sound cards have come a long way. My onboard card is far superior to my old Audigy 24-bit card I had at one time.

Old Computer (like my old 2001 Toshiba): may not be good enough to even produce MP3 faithfully or may be so noisy that everything above a certain frequency is going to be just noisy enough to mask all the "delicate" Highs anyway. Sounds dull and noisy, but powerful and heavy.

Newer Computer (Like my 2008 Sony): Will play 24-bit 192Khz Master Tapes 100% flawlessly with close zero noise. Sounds bright, detailed and accurate without being glassy or having a metallic sheen. Excellent lows and mids too.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:25 am 
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Quote:
but technically there is not much that is actually different going on, beyond diverging away from black metal riffs entirely (probably because they wouldn't know one if it hit them in the face)...


riffs are important in metal so diverging away from black metal riffs is something actually different going on imo

Image

Graphs like this are interesting! This thread is making me want to embrace my audio nerd side and sit down and listen to a bunch of CDs.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:54 am 
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traptunderice wrote:
I think you're reducing the influence quite a bit. I think their influence can already be seen but I'm not claiming they've taken root like Darkthrone but I think they might be in line to do that. USBM isn't talking about Krieg, Leviathan or Xasthur anymore. Liturgy, Woe, Panopticon, Krallice, Skagos, Ludicra, WITTR, Ash Borer, Fell Voices, Fall of Rauros, Lake of Blood (I'd even include Altar of Plagues, Fen and Terzij De Horde albeit not US). They're all obviously incorporating various degrees of hardcore, post-rock, Drudkh, Agalloch, but I think we can point to Weakling as being an influence. And honestly you say that Weakling do a shitty rendition of black metal, I think Venom did a shitty rendition of NWOBHM and look what it has influenced. I'll abstract from my dislike of Venom but no matter how shitty Weakling is or you think they are it is influencing these bands and these bands are the bands being talked about.


The majority of the bands you've mentioned aren't particularly popular. The only one that has really gained any notable popularity outside a small niche are WITTR who aren't singularly influenced by Weakling. Actually, without their notable Drudkh/Agalloch/Negura Bunget/possibly some Empyrium? influences, they would probably be as dull as Krallice and Liturgy, though they aren't far off the mark there.

Other than WITTR, Krallice, Liturgy, Panopticon, Fen and Altar of Plagues (the last three even less popular, I'd say. I hear more people talking about the latest Profanatica or Gravewürm than some of these) I don't think I've heard any talk at all about the others. As for USBM not being about those of the 90's and early to mid 2000s anymore...not so sure about that. There aren't many USBM bands that call themselves "atmospheric" or whatnot that weren't in some way influenced by Judas Iscariot even just in passing (Wouldn't be surprised if Weakling was influenced in some way by JI), and it's hard to believe that Krallice or Liturgy would be completely uninfluenced by Leviathan and Xasthur.

I'm not denying that Weakling influenced these bands, but I did take issue with Kathaarian saying that Weakling almost single-handedly defined the sound of new USBM genre's sound because that's false even just looking at WITTR. I think that's an exaggeration. That there really is nothing new about Weakling's sound, is the other problem. It literally sounds like a mad scientist said "according to my sophistimacated calculations black metal must contains:
Screechy vocals - Check!
Tremolo picking - Check!
Repetition of same chord x 1000 - Check!
Loud drummingz! - Check!
Indiscernible riffs - Check!"

The only thing that makes it discernable from what came before is that it sounds like someone plugged a "black metal code" into a computer and out popped a generic band. By this I mean that Weakling sounds far too similar to Burzum and Emperor not to be just another unsuccessful clone (there's a few botched Emperor riffs in there if I remember right), and the only thing these bands seem to have mastered is how to create anti-climactic, largely riffless and very monotonous "extreme" metal that sounds like a magnified bumblebee, with some feeble post-rock mixed in (though he wasn't the first to do that either). I can understand the novelty of having one band this fucking monotonous, but do we really need to relive it through Krallice and Liturgy? Ugh.

traptunderice wrote:
The problem I want to point out in your genealogy is that you're acting like Dead as Dreams has been out for twenty years. It is just now being taken up so to proclaim its lack of influence or even its influence beyond anecdotal lists is problematic. We need more time to make any broad claims but I think my claim is safe to make. Ace of Spades it may not be in terms of that instant success but people going back to it in time doesn't make it less of a classic. Artillery and other early power metal bands lacked influence but are finding a resurgence influence in stuff like Slough Feg.


Fair enough on it remaining to be seen, but I just don't understand why you're so quick to call this a classic when it's clearly nothing new or spectacular. Especially when bands like Drudkh, Windir (Likferd and 1184) and Negura Bunget would be far better examples of bands that put out highly influential and truly classic albums in the 2000s, who have proven to be influential throughout the last ten years in many sub-genres of black metal. Especially Drudkh who even formed in the 2000s. Compared to these bands Weakling is a joke.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:57 am 
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Sceadugenga wrote:
Fair enough on it remaining to be seen, but I just don't understand why you're so quick to call this a classic when it's clearly nothing new or spectacular. Especially when bands like Drudkh, Windir (Likferd and 1184) and Negura Bunget would be far better examples of bands that put out highly influential and truly classic albums in the 2000s, who have proven to be influential throughout the last ten years in many sub-genres of black metal. Especially Drudkh who even formed in the 2000s. Compared to these bands Weakling is a joke.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:16 am 
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Completely unrelated topic but Windirs demos were trashed fairly horribly recently on MA


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:49 am 
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cry of the banshee wrote:
Welcome back, BTW, I've always considered you to be one of the better contributors here.

USBM, by and large, is a very weak niche.
There are a (very) few exceptions, as always.


Good to see you around as well. And agree with what you say about USBM. It's popped out a few good bands, for me namely Judas Iscariot and Absu being my favourites. Even with Xasthur and Leviathan I felt the genre as a whole strayed too far from what bm was originally about. Many USBM bands sounded like they were attempting to immitate something they didn't quite understand musically.

Goat wrote:
We had the exact same discussion last time IronDu- I mean, Sceadugenga was here. Someone really doesn't like Weakling. :wink:


:lol: Haha, yeah we did and I think it was with Trapt that time, too. As for Weakling, I just dislike bands that obviously haven't a clue about black metal beyond *insert screeching vocals and tremolo* when that isn't what made black metal black metal to begin with. And yeah I know this discussion is going nowhere fast since none of us are going to be changing our opinions any time soon :wink:

Kathaarian wrote:
What Weakling did was influence a very well established genre, which is still pretty impressive, summoning a lot of bands like them in a short time. And those bands are making quality music and are getting more popular.


Not all that impressive, really. They aren't the first to have influenced a handful of bands with some superficial view of what any given genre is/isn't. I'd argue that you can't even call this black metal anymore since they've completely failed to grasp the genre.

In a way you can compare it to a large portion of the new wave thrash bands (I can hear the resounding "wut?!" now, lol) as far as they aren't really doing anything interesting or new, yet each new one that pops up kind of sounds a bit like the last and usually fails at capturing the old sound. With this genre, too, quite a few are influenced by earlier revival bands, yet I wouldn't call Toxic Holocaust or any such band a "classic." Some create worthwhile tributes to the old school, but they are few and far between. But they aren't claiming to do anything new and have some respect for the genre they come from. And some of them still manage to play some good thrash. Many newer American "black metal" bands, Weakling included, want to be the complete anti-thesis to black metal despite that they have their roots there and would be nothing without it...so I'm more than happy to leave them out of the genre entirely. I wouldn't be surprised if this new "novelty" for extreme monotony and "positive riffing" or whatever Liturgy calls it wears off quickly.

stevelovesmoonspell wrote:
I also checked out Hammer of The Gods by Angelcorpse since our last argument and I really liked them.


Awesome! Glad you liked the album! :dio:

noodles wrote:
Quote:
but technically there is not much that is actually different going on, beyond diverging away from black metal riffs entirely (probably because they wouldn't know one if it hit them in the face)...

riffs are important in metal so diverging away from black metal riffs is something actually different going on imo


The problem is that the nature of a riff changes depending on the genre of metal. Tremolo-ing a power metal riff (as an example) does not a black metal riff make. And it's changing the structure of a riff that can "blacken" it or, instead, make it a happy power metal song with tremolo picking. Ignoring the effect a riff has on music means that a band ignores what actually makes up that genre.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:23 am 
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Agree to disagree then. Just keep in mind that almost all bands you mentioned, adding those in your last post like Drudkh, Negura Bunget and Windir, are bands that I love much more than Krallice and Liturgy. I'm just making an objective observation of how the new USBM sound came to be what it is today.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Adveser wrote:
Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Yes it's clearer with graph + the explanations, thank you very much.

I don't know what to think of my shitload of mp3s right now...

(I promise I stop using the word shitload, starting tomorrow.)


Well, I personally think it comes down to hardware. If you own a modern computer it likely has 32/24 bit resolution with at least 96Khz sample rate you are in good shape. At that point Mp3 is going to make you suffer. Back 5 years ago was the last time I did a serious comparison and couldn't tell the difference on the old 48Khz/16-Bit cards. Sound cards have come a long way. My onboard card is far superior to my old Audigy 24-bit card I had at one time.

Old Computer (like my old 2001 Toshiba): may not be good enough to even produce MP3 faithfully or may be so noisy that everything above a certain frequency is going to be just noisy enough to mask all the "delicate" Highs anyway. Sounds dull and noisy, but powerful and heavy.

Newer Computer (Like my 2008 Sony): Will play 24-bit 192Khz Master Tapes 100% flawlessly with close zero noise. Sounds bright, detailed and accurate without being glassy or having a metallic sheen. Excellent lows and mids too.


Alright, so would you suggest I closely listen to cd-rips I made a long time ago with shitty hardware, and see if I can hear differences with the actual output (mp3s) ?

Hell, when I think of the names of the bands potentially affected by this and the number of re-rips I would have to do... :ph34r:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Sceadugenga wrote:
Other than WITTR, Krallice, Liturgy, Panopticon, Fen and Altar of Plagues (the last three even less popular, I'd say. I hear more people talking about the latest Profanatica or Gravewürm than some of these) I don't think I've heard any talk at all about the others.
I only frequent here so maybe I'm skewed. Agree to disagree because I'm siding with what noodz said.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:20 pm 
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@ Kath and Trapt, agreed to disagree.

But Trapt, I'm still gonna stick a last one in and say that riffs are a huge part of what makes black metal to begin with, and you can't really have black metal without the proper riffing. That's a big part of what joins 80's bm to the bm that came after genre-wise.


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Sceadugenga wrote:
@ Kath and Trapt, agreed to disagree.

But Trapt, I'm still gonna stick a last one in and say that riffs are a huge part of what makes black metal to begin with, and you can't really have black metal without the proper riffing. That's a big part of what joins 80's bm to the bm that came after genre-wise.
That's fine. Fuck your genre distinctions. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:39 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
Sceadugenga wrote:
@ Kath and Trapt, agreed to disagree.

But Trapt, I'm still gonna stick a last one in and say that riffs are a huge part of what makes black metal to begin with, and you can't really have black metal without the proper riffing. That's a big part of what joins 80's bm to the bm that came after genre-wise.
That's fine. Fuck your genre distinctions. :wink:


Pffft, my genre distinctions reign supreme :dio:

That is all.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:45 pm 
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traptunderice wrote:
Sceadugenga wrote:
@ Kath and Trapt, agreed to disagree.

But Trapt, I'm still gonna stick a last one in and say that riffs are a huge part of what makes black metal to begin with, and you can't really have black metal without the proper riffing. That's a big part of what joins 80's bm to the bm that came after genre-wise.
That's fine. Fuck your genre distinctions. :wink:


You even apply marxism to music, forfucksake.
:lol:

Anyway, I agree with the lady here, of course; those bands (Krallice, WIITR, Panopticon, Weakling, etc.) sound like black metal attempted by charlatans that really don't grasp the concept behind the genre, as a side project to boot, for the casual black metal dabbler.
Black metal lite for dilletantes.
Black metal is an abstract, Gestalt genre; it's not enough that it has tremolo picking, scissor drums, and shreiking vox. It has to have the element of genuine malice / sorrow / darkness / cold... call it the glue that binds it all together, if you like. Or, the "black" in black metal.
It's the same reason that so-called norsecore, though technically called black metal, is impure, false "black metal" done by infidels.
But we've gone over all this before.
Only thing I'd like to add: "progressive" elements have no place in black metal, and that goes for double-latte drinking, tree-hugging anarcho lefty politics as well.
Trendy, hipster bullshit is all that is.




But that's just one man's opinion, after all; take it as you will.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Yes it's clearer with graph + the explanations, thank you very much.

I don't know what to think of my shitload of mp3s right now...

(I promise I stop using the word shitload, starting tomorrow.)


Well, I personally think it comes down to hardware. If you own a modern computer it likely has 32/24 bit resolution with at least 96Khz sample rate you are in good shape. At that point Mp3 is going to make you suffer. Back 5 years ago was the last time I did a serious comparison and couldn't tell the difference on the old 48Khz/16-Bit cards. Sound cards have come a long way. My onboard card is far superior to my old Audigy 24-bit card I had at one time.

Old Computer (like my old 2001 Toshiba): may not be good enough to even produce MP3 faithfully or may be so noisy that everything above a certain frequency is going to be just noisy enough to mask all the "delicate" Highs anyway. Sounds dull and noisy, but powerful and heavy.

Newer Computer (Like my 2008 Sony): Will play 24-bit 192Khz Master Tapes 100% flawlessly with close zero noise. Sounds bright, detailed and accurate without being glassy or having a metallic sheen. Excellent lows and mids too.


Alright, so would you suggest I closely listen to cd-rips I made a long time ago with shitty hardware, and see if I can hear differences with the actual output (mp3s) ?

Hell, when I think of the names of the bands potentially affected by this and the number of re-rips I would have to do... :ph34r:


I wouldn't even say that. If you have a more recent computer, ditch the MP3's. I mean if your music worth the cost of a hundred dollar external hard drive?

The quality of the rips doesn't matter really. I still used a 7 year old copy of LAME that worked perfectly fine compared to the new one. I needed the old one because it had a switch to stopped filtering. Since maybe 1% of "High Quality" rippers even know about this swtich, that is a good enough reason to re-encode right of the bat if you absolutely insist on MP3.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Sceadugenga wrote:
noodles wrote:
Quote:
but technically there is not much that is actually different going on, beyond diverging away from black metal riffs entirely (probably because they wouldn't know one if it hit them in the face)...

riffs are important in metal so diverging away from black metal riffs is something actually different going on imo


The problem is that the nature of a riff changes depending on the genre of metal. Tremolo-ing a power metal riff (as an example) does not a black metal riff make. And it's changing the structure of a riff that can "blacken" it or, instead, make it a happy power metal song with tremolo picking. Ignoring the effect a riff has on music means that a band ignores what actually makes up that genre.


I don't really disagree with any of this (although in my experience key and rhythm have the biggest influence on the mood of a riff, so I think you could make a happy power metal riff sound pretty evil sounding if you took away the rhythmic bounce and played it in a minor key).

I was just pointing out a seeming contradiction in what you're saying since on one hand, you're saying they're merely imitating what came before, but on the other you're saying they're not writing black metal riffs, which to me sounds like doing something fundamentally different from other black metal bands. You might think that's a sign of "doing it wrong" but that's subjective 8)

Personally I think they are playing black metal riffs. I hear more polyphony in Weakling or Krallice than I do in Burzum or Immortal, but they still sound like black metal to me (except the doomy riffs Weakling do sometimes). I also have poor ears and listen to roughly one black metal album every six months, so I'd be interested in a concrete explanation of why they aren't playing black metal riffs.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Adveser wrote:
Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Adveser wrote:
Bruce_Bitenfils wrote:
Yes it's clearer with graph + the explanations, thank you very much.

I don't know what to think of my shitload of mp3s right now...

(I promise I stop using the word shitload, starting tomorrow.)


Well, I personally think it comes down to hardware. If you own a modern computer it likely has 32/24 bit resolution with at least 96Khz sample rate you are in good shape. At that point Mp3 is going to make you suffer. Back 5 years ago was the last time I did a serious comparison and couldn't tell the difference on the old 48Khz/16-Bit cards. Sound cards have come a long way. My onboard card is far superior to my old Audigy 24-bit card I had at one time.

Old Computer (like my old 2001 Toshiba): may not be good enough to even produce MP3 faithfully or may be so noisy that everything above a certain frequency is going to be just noisy enough to mask all the "delicate" Highs anyway. Sounds dull and noisy, but powerful and heavy.

Newer Computer (Like my 2008 Sony): Will play 24-bit 192Khz Master Tapes 100% flawlessly with close zero noise. Sounds bright, detailed and accurate without being glassy or having a metallic sheen. Excellent lows and mids too.


Alright, so would you suggest I closely listen to cd-rips I made a long time ago with shitty hardware, and see if I can hear differences with the actual output (mp3s) ?

Hell, when I think of the names of the bands potentially affected by this and the number of re-rips I would have to do... :ph34r:


I wouldn't even say that. If you have a more recent computer, ditch the MP3's. I mean if your music worth the cost of a hundred dollar external hard drive?

The quality of the rips doesn't matter really. I still used a 7 year old copy of LAME that worked perfectly fine compared to the new one. I needed the old one because it had a switch to stopped filtering. Since maybe 1% of "High Quality" rippers even know about this swtich, that is a good enough reason to re-encode right of the bat if you absolutely insist on MP3.


Ok, I misunderstood what you previously said.
I'm ok with starting using FLAC, but I can't hear the difference between FLAC and 320k-encoded mp3 on the laptop I'm using right now. Plus, iTunes doesn't seem to support it.


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