Wow, this thread is still going strong lol
I wanna go back to what I was saying about riffs in black metal (and perhaps in metal overall) since this is still going on.
noodles wrote:
I don't really disagree with any of this (although in my experience key and rhythm have the biggest influence on the mood of a riff, so I think you could make a happy power metal riff sound pretty evil sounding if you took away the rhythmic bounce and played it in a minor key).
I agree to an extent, but would the happy power metal riff be a power metal riff anymore if a musician changed enough about the riff itself? I dunno, that's kinda what I was saying. You cannot tremolo pick a straight up power metal riff and have it sound black metal. You have to change the nature of the riff. Just listen to Bal Sagoth who claim to be black metal, yet are more of an extreme pm band at best (not saying this as an insult, because I do like their stuff, they're just not bm).
Sure you can still use the same core notes and chords, but if they are made harmonic minor instead of major, if there were no transitioning between major and minor keys throughout the song, if the rhythm is no longer producing galloping pm or NWOBHM riffs, it would change the nature of the riff itself. You might even make an entirely different pm riff out of it.
noodles wrote:
I was just pointing out a seeming contradiction in what you're saying since on one hand, you're saying they're merely imitating what came before, but on the other you're saying they're not writing black metal riffs, which to me sounds like doing something fundamentally different from other black metal bands. You might think that's a sign of "doing it wrong" but that's subjective 8)
Whether people like to admit it or not, metal is divided into sub-genres and each sub-genre has its own distinctive sound. Yes, a lot of bands cross the line and use characteristics of two or more sub-genres in their music, but people recognise that. People recognise that even though early black metal is certainly black metal, they'll still recognise the thrashier influence or the doomier influence in some cases. Bathory's Blood Fire Death is considered a black metal album, yet everyone with ears also hears the thrashyness that was a part of the early bm sound. If Bathory weren't an old school band, then Bathory might more aptly be labeled a black/thrash band. But people still recognise what makes those albums black metal and what makes those albums thrash metal.
The point is, metal and black metal has its rules. No matter how much metal is an aggressive, breaker of societal norms and ideals, no matter how much we like to revel in what society finds frightening, disgusting, uncivilised or perhaps just juvenile, there is order in our chaos. Break a
significant rule about what makes black metal or metal what they are, and you're no longer either of those things.
What I was trying to express is that bands like Krallice have taken the superficial (or perhaps I should say enhancing) aspects of black metal, the aspects which are most audible to outside listeners (tremolo picking, the extreme vocals, blast beats) and immitated them. They've called themselves black metal of some kind. Yet they've failed to figure out what's at the core of the sound. Either that or they've chosen to ignore it, and given some of the bullshit I've heard Liturgy say, they seem more set on looking down on black metal than anything else.
To me, as long as they are calling themselves black metal and inserting post-rock or prog rock sounding riffs into their black metal, they aren't black metal. As long as they fail to see the importance black metal places on lingering and worshiping riffs, they will not be black metal. As long as they are not riff oriented, they will not be black metal.
noodles wrote:
Personally I think they are playing black metal riffs. I hear more polyphony in Weakling or Krallice than I do in Burzum or Immortal, but they still sound like black metal to me (except the doomy riffs Weakling do sometimes). I also have poor ears and listen to roughly one black metal album every six months, so I'd be interested in a concrete explanation of why they aren't playing black metal riffs.
Ok, so here I just want to warn you that it's been like six years since I last took much interest in music theory, so I'm hoping I can get across what I want to get across in an intelligible way. I also don't spend my time listening to bands I don't like so I'm going off my memory of my listens to bands like Krallice, Liturgy etc.
Polyphony is one of things that's a problem for me. It's not that it hasn't been done to some degree in black metal, but the way it's done is different. First of all, when it's done in black metal there is nothing particularly clean or outwardly positively aesthetic in its intent. Its usually used as a transition point and it usually sounds as dirty and distorted as everything else. There is no attempt at being artistic (in the popular sense, though bm itself, like any music, is a kind of art). From what I remember of Krallice its overused and there was also a lot of sustain being used giving it a cleaner sound more akin to what you'd find in post-rock or maybe Jethro Tull lol.
But that aside, I want to go back to the first part of the discussion about key, rhythm, and what I said later about "worshipping" riffs and placing them in the forefront.
Because of the post/prog influence in some of these bands, there's still that interplay between major and minor riffs that do not make for a black metal sound. Major keys or the melodic minor in general are not used often in black metal, and even inserting that into a black metal song accompanied with blatant attention to overtechnicality/wankery (while ignoring riffs as paramount to all) gives more of a prog feel than anything else.
The other thing is that with Krallice and Liturgy especially, they seem more concerned with creating a constant instrumental buzz strewn with disconnected and unintelligible riffs rather than actually working on creating interesting and memorable riffs. Their riffing has seemed very rushed and sporadic to me and leaves no time to allow them to sink in, to create that adrenaline rush, or to take pride in the riff. It's as though a technical guitarist with no ability as a song writer picked up a guitar and started playing random notes with no rhyme or reason. They play their riffs as though they're to be forgotten not remembered, as though they're just there to add to the noise rather than add anything to the song.
This is not a characteristic of black metal, and I dare say it isn't even a characteristic of metal, as a riff-driven genre,
traditionally. This is what I mean by musicians "worshipping" the riffs they create. A band may play speedy and more technical riffs like Emperor, but I'm still going to remember every riff in Cosmic Keys To My Creations & Times or I Am the Black Wizzards or Ensorcelled By Khaos. They aren't just writing riffs to make noise. Hell, Portal have a greater sense of melody than these guys. Riffs are everything and they stand out, each with its own characteristics and identity, they aren't rushed.
Have some more thoughts but this post is probably already long enough without a tl;dr.
